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kiliki Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2003 Posts: 2310 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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kiliki
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Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:13 pm
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uww wrote: | Secret Agent Man wrote: | Concessionaires shouldn’t allowed to work in MRNP now? |
I don't really mind these guide services, and there are lots of them of various flavors throughout the park system. Here's just MRNP:
https://www.nps.gov/mora/getinvolved/current-cua.htm
What does bug me is that they apparently are using use first-come first served campgrounds. I don't think anyone should be able to 'hold' those resources for people who are not there, and certainly not for profit. |
Agreed. How are they able to set up "glamping" sites for runners at White River and Mowich? Neither allow the public to make reservations, and there is no group site there.
When planning a backpacking trip in the Stehekin Valley next week I came across this group and their planned runs from Cascade Pass to Stehekin. I was really glad I did as I picked the upper valley explicitly to avoid people, and I would have been very bummed to have a group of 12 runners camped near me.
It's hard not to see this as part of the general push to relax regulation and allow more people to make money in our NPs. Write the park if you are concerned. They may not like it either but unless they know they have public support may not be able to push back against people in DC.
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kiliki Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2003 Posts: 2310 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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kiliki
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Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:21 pm
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thunderhead wrote: | I dont get the animosity towards trail runners. I really dont. |
It's similar to the way that some people have animosity toward cyclists on the road, or dog owners. If you aren't part of that group, and you see bad behavior from that group, it's pretty easy to feel animosity toward the whole group. I've seen rude trail runner behavior--specifically, never stepping aside and pushing past hikers to get around them--and crazy trail runner behavior (being very deep in the North Cascades and seeing one in a teeny outfit and only a camelback, certainly not enough to keep them safe and warm if they get hurt) enough that I grumble about them, too, at least in my head. Are there statistically more trail runners that are rude or stupid than hikers? Probably not.
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fourteen410 Member
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 2622 | TRs | Pics
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There are some seriously miserable people here.
In all my years of hiking, I've never once had a bad experience with a trail runner. Or a mountain biker, horse rider, or hunter for that matter. The few bad experiences I have had have been with other hikers. Should I hate all hikers because of the bad experiences I've had with a few?
The animosity toward other user groups is so elitist and bizarre. People enjoy the wilderness in different ways. As long as they do no harm, who cares how they recreate? Good grief.
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BigBrunyon Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 Posts: 1450 | TRs | Pics Location: the fitness gyms!! |
"The more you pass, the higher the class"
Old saying. Basically means that the faster you are moving, or the harder your activity, the more seniority or status you have on the trail.
Gus used to like to take frequent long breaks and then run for stretches, seein' how many times he could pass the same slow groups in one day.
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Chief Joseph Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 7676 | TRs | Pics Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
fourteen410 wrote: | There are some seriously miserable people here. |
Really? Just because some of us find trail runners annoying?
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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rocknclimb Member
Joined: 10 Sep 2010 Posts: 474 | TRs | Pics Location: Wenatchee Valley |
Last Thursday I decided to do a trail run around the typically busy Jenny Lake Trail. Although I was not carrying the 10 essentials or bear spray I felt I was adequately equipped to handle potential issues. Anyways, around mile 5 I ran into a group of 4 that seemed paralyzed w/ fear over a bear ahead. 2 of them had bear spray in hand, but it was fairly obvious they were uneasy about how to handle the situation.. 1 stopped me stating "There is a bear up ahead", and I simply said "I don't really care". A few more strides further I came across a large cinnamon bear on trail and halted the run. Without panic I made myself big and became loud yelling at the bear as loud as possible. Eventually the bear headed up the brush off trail a couple hundred yards. The group behind thanked me and asked if I would be willing to hike w/ their group for a bit. Said "Sorry, no I'm running the trail". Both myself & the group had a cool experience in the wilderness in our own way, and neither seemed to be offended by the other. Runners, hikers, cyclists, equestrians, and others experience the wild in our own unique way, and that is 100% cool by me. Acting like another group doesn't belong cause it's a "busy trail" or some other excuse is absolute BS.
When asked "Why do you climb"? Simply respond "Why don't you"?
When asked "Why do you climb"? Simply respond "Why don't you"?
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RumiDude Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Posts: 3580 | TRs | Pics Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:30 pm
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kiliki wrote: | Write the park if you are concerned. They may not like it either but unless they know they have public support may not be able to push back against people in DC. |
I would suggest also writing your congressional representatives. I have found that often the people in charge need a nudge from outside the agency to change direction of policy.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Carbonj Member
Joined: 12 May 2020 Posts: 56 | TRs | Pics
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Carbonj
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Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:16 pm
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Been involved in many search and rescues the ratio of runners vs hikers sad to say hikers far out number runners. As a whole everyone screws up.I know at some point % wise I could too, I've told friends and family to describe me as a hack not a expert when I get lost or screw up.
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markweth Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2017 Posts: 155 | TRs | Pics Location: Montana |
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markweth
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Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:13 am
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rocknclimb wrote: | Anyways, around mile 5 I ran into a group of 4 that seemed paralyzed w/ fear over a bear ahead. 2 of them had bear spray in hand, but it was fairly obvious they were uneasy about how to handle the situation.. 1 stopped me stating "There is a bear up ahead", and I simply said "I don't really care". A few more strides further I came across a large cinnamon bear on trail and halted the run. Without panic I made myself big and became loud yelling at the bear as loud as possible. Eventually the bear headed up the brush off trail a couple hundred yards. |
This sounds more like you just harassed a bear rather than did anything worth being thanked for or warranting a self-aggrandizing forum post about.
Granted I wasn't on the scene at this "situation", but it sounds like the bear wasn't aggressive or interested at all in the hikers or you.
Rather than carefully making your way around the bear without disturbing it or enjoying the chance to see a bear in its natural habitat and waiting for it to move on of its own accord (both of which have always been recommended to be by NPS rangers when seeing a bear on a trail -- it was only when a bear was in camp or otherwise threatening people that I have been told to yell or otherwise intimidate the bear), you saw fit to harass wildlife so you could continue your run. I think your values and priorities are pretty clear.
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Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:35 am
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markweth wrote: | This sounds more like you just harassed a bear rather than did anything worth being thanked for or warranting a self-aggrandizing forum post about.
Granted I wasn't on the scene at this "situation", but it sounds like the bear wasn't aggressive or interested at all in the hikers or you.
Rather than carefully making your way around the bear without disturbing it or enjoying the chance to see a bear in its natural habitat and waiting for it to move on of its own accord (both of which have always been recommended to be by NPS rangers when seeing a bear on a trail -- it was only when a bear was in camp or otherwise threatening people that I have been told to yell or otherwise intimidate the bear), you saw fit to harass wildlife so you could continue your run. I think your values and priorities are pretty clear. |
Sound like RockNClimd followed the advice of the humane society
Quote: | If you do encounter a bear, remain calm and remember that the bear is likely more scared of you than you are of him. Attacks by black bears on people are very rare and most black bears can be easily scared away with the following approach:
Stand and face the bear directly. Never run away from or approach him.
Make yourself look as big as possible by spreading your arms or, better yet, a coat.
Make as much noise as possible by yelling, banging pots and pans or using other noisemaking devices.
If the bear approaches and you have bear spray, spray the bear as he approaches.
In the very rare case that a black bear does attack you, fight back (don’t play dead).
After the bear leaves, remove whatever attracted him to the location (barbecue grill, bird feeder, pet food or garbage). |
https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/what-do-about-black-bears
Perhaps if RockNClimb was Canadian, she would have used this approach
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7697 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:42 am
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markweth Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2017 Posts: 155 | TRs | Pics Location: Montana |
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markweth
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Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:42 am
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Randito wrote: | markweth wrote: | This sounds more like you just harassed a bear rather than did anything worth being thanked for or warranting a self-aggrandizing forum post about.
Granted I wasn't on the scene at this "situation", but it sounds like the bear wasn't aggressive or interested at all in the hikers or you.
Rather than carefully making your way around the bear without disturbing it or enjoying the chance to see a bear in its natural habitat and waiting for it to move on of its own accord (both of which have always been recommended to be by NPS rangers when seeing a bear on a trail -- it was only when a bear was in camp or otherwise threatening people that I have been told to yell or otherwise intimidate the bear), you saw fit to harass wildlife so you could continue your run. I think your values and priorities are pretty clear. |
Sound like RockNClimd followed the advice of the humane society
Quote: | If you do encounter a bear, remain calm and remember that the bear is likely more scared of you than you are of him. Attacks by black bears on people are very rare and most black bears can be easily scared away with the following approach:
Stand and face the bear directly. Never run away from or approach him.
Make yourself look as big as possible by spreading your arms or, better yet, a coat.
Make as much noise as possible by yelling, banging pots and pans or using other noisemaking devices.
If the bear approaches and you have bear spray, spray the bear as he approaches.
In the very rare case that a black bear does attack you, fight back (don’t play dead).
After the bear leaves, remove whatever attracted him to the location (barbecue grill, bird feeder, pet food or garbage). |
https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/what-do-about-black-bears
Perhaps if RockNClimb was Canadian, she would have used this approach
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I think following the advice of the National Park Service, where the incident occurred, is more appropriate:
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/bears/safety.htm
https://www.nps.gov/articles/viewingbears.htm
If you read through those, and place his behavior in the context of approaching a bear in its natural habitat (rather than waiting for it to move or choosing an alternate route to get around the bear without threatening it) then it more closely resembles needless harassment of wildlife in its natural habitat than an appropriate reaction.
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RumiDude Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Posts: 3580 | TRs | Pics Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:53 am
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markweth wrote: | rocknclimb wrote: | Anyways, around mile 5 I ran into a group of 4 that seemed paralyzed w/ fear over a bear ahead. 2 of them had bear spray in hand, but it was fairly obvious they were uneasy about how to handle the situation.. 1 stopped me stating "There is a bear up ahead", and I simply said "I don't really care". A few more strides further I came across a large cinnamon bear on trail and halted the run. Without panic I made myself big and became loud yelling at the bear as loud as possible. Eventually the bear headed up the brush off trail a couple hundred yards. |
This sounds more like you just harassed a bear |
Wow, I agree with markweth.
*bigwhenhellfreezesovergrins*
Since we are all griping about stuff here, let me continue the trend. This is one of my pet peeves, harrashing wildlife. And this doesn't just apply to bears and large animals, even small animals should be respected. In this case the bear would have moved off the trail of it's own volition within several minutes. Give the bear time to do it's bear thing.
We are just visiting out there, THE ANIMALS ARE TRYING TO SURVIVE! They don't need the added pressure of humans trying to manipulate them. Leave them alone and don't approach them. Unless they are approaching you, entering your camp, trying to procure food, etc., just leave them alone.
Rumi
PS: Sorry (not sorry) for the all caps section.
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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markweth Member
Joined: 08 Feb 2017 Posts: 155 | TRs | Pics Location: Montana |
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markweth
Member
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Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:03 am
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RumiDude wrote: | markweth wrote: | rocknclimb wrote: | Anyways, around mile 5 I ran into a group of 4 that seemed paralyzed w/ fear over a bear ahead. 2 of them had bear spray in hand, but it was fairly obvious they were uneasy about how to handle the situation.. 1 stopped me stating "There is a bear up ahead", and I simply said "I don't really care". A few more strides further I came across a large cinnamon bear on trail and halted the run. Without panic I made myself big and became loud yelling at the bear as loud as possible. Eventually the bear headed up the brush off trail a couple hundred yards. |
This sounds more like you just harassed a bear |
Wow, I agree with markweth.
*bigwhenhellfreezesovergrins*
Since we are all griping about stuff here, let me continue the trend. This is one of my pet peeves, harrashing wildlife. And this doesn't just apply to bears and large animals, even small animals should be respected. In this case the bear would have moved off the trail of it's own volition within several minutes. Give the bear time to do it's bear thing.
We are just visiting out there, THE ANIMALS ARE TRYING TO SURVIVE! They don't need the added pressure of humans trying to manipulate them. Leave them alone and don't approach them. Unless they are approaching you, entering your camp, trying to procure food, etc., just leave them alone.
Rumi
PS: Sorry (not sorry) for the all caps section. |
A broken clock (me) is right twice a day
Guess we will just have to disagree over the implications of if rocknclimb had posted about trail running at Jenny Lake on Instagram
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kiliki Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2003 Posts: 2310 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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kiliki
Member
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Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:10 am
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Randito wrote: | markweth wrote: | This sounds more like you just harassed a bear rather than did anything worth being thanked for or warranting a self-aggrandizing forum post about.
Granted I wasn't on the scene at this "situation", but it sounds like the bear wasn't aggressive or interested at all in the hikers or you.
Rather than carefully making your way around the bear without disturbing it or enjoying the chance to see a bear in its natural habitat and waiting for it to move on of its own accord (both of which have always been recommended to be by NPS rangers when seeing a bear on a trail -- it was only when a bear was in camp or otherwise threatening people that I have been told to yell or otherwise intimidate the bear), you saw fit to harass wildlife so you could continue your run. I think your values and priorities are pretty clear. |
Sound like RockNClimd followed the advice of the humane society |
That advice is very specifically about hazing a bear away from your garbage/house, as it says in big bold letters on top of that web page. It's not for hiking.
What to do about black bears
Bear troubles in your neighborhood? Bird feeders and unsecured pet food, garbage and grills may be bringing them to your back door.
https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/what-do-about-black-bears
Bears have a very limited time to find enough food and gain enough weight to survive the winter. Hazing a bear who is eating and minding its own business off a trail because it's in your way is incredibly arrogant. What's the point of being in a national park if wildlife are just going to be in your way? Why not just run somewhere else?
That is a perfect example of why people can get so frustrated with trail runners. Get out of my way is so often the MO. Not always, there are considerate runners of course.
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