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80skeys
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PostWed Sep 02, 2020 7:54 am 
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Bedivere wrote:
I really hope you're not burning plastics.  Burning plastics releases a LOT of VERY nasty chemicals.  Plastic packaging doesn't weigh anything, pack it out please.

Mostly I burn the packaging that the dehydrated food comes in.

Sallie4jo wrote:
We people are a mess.  The animals take way better care of mother earth.

Humans never have and never will learn to treat neither themselves nor their environment right.
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Randito
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PostWed Sep 02, 2020 12:51 pm 
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Sallie4jo wrote:
The animals take way better care of mother earth.

What naive romantic nonsense.   Animals just do what they do and there are many wildlife populations that experience boom/bust cycles of population growth and crash that are at least partially caused by the animals over taxing the reasources of the area.   Just one scientific paper on the subject: https://www.bio.fsu.edu/~james/krebs.pdf

The main difference between humans and animals is that humans are worldwide and very populous species that consumes a wide array of resources.     If we continue to act as instictually as the animals do, eventually there will be a huge human population crash and billions of humans will die (and most other animals as well).    The human population might get reduced to a few thousand individuals -- but I think it is unlikely that humans will go extinct -- we are one of the most adaptable and ruthless species after all.

If humans can learn to act thoughfully as a population it's possible that outcome can be avoided --I'd say the odds are against it -- but anything is possible.
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Bedivere
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PostWed Sep 02, 2020 8:56 pm 
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80skeys wrote:
Bedivere wrote:
I really hope you're not burning plastics.  Burning plastics releases a LOT of VERY nasty chemicals.  Plastic packaging doesn't weigh anything, pack it out please.

Mostly I burn the packaging that the dehydrated food comes in.

So, plastics.    shakehead.gif

https://engineering.mit.edu/engage/ask-an-engineer/can-we-safely-burn-used-plastic-objects-in-a-domestic-fireplace/

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80skeys
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 7:47 am 
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Bedivere wrote:
So, plastics.    shakehead.gif

On the packaging it recommends disposing it by burning it in the campfire- says it's safe. So that's what I'm going off of.
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coldrain108
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 8:53 am 
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Randito wrote:
If humans can learn to act thoughfully as a population it's possible that outcome can be avoided --I'd say the odds are against it -- but anything is possible.

trouble is many of our institutions; political, religious and economic, want us to stay thoughtless and compliant and they work hard towards maintaining that thoughtlessness among the masses.

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neek
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 9:10 am 
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80skeys wrote:
On the packaging it recommends disposing it by burning it in the campfire- says it's safe. So that's what I'm going off of.

There is indeed freeze dried food packaging that is just paper/wax (presumably) - no foil/plastic - and can be safely burned.  e.g. http://www.backcountryfood.org/shop/.  Good to know.
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80skeys
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 10:53 am 
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As someone else mentioned, I think the biggest problem is the size of the human population. Sure, there's things like CO2 emissions and strip mining and all that, but in my opinion the main problem is the amount of resources consumed by billions of people. A friend recently told me that he has read that if you weigh all the humans on the planet, and compare our weight with the combined weight of all other wildlife mammals, we outweigh them 22x. If this is true, it's clear evidence that there are way too many people on this planet.
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Monkey Del Mar
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 12:41 pm 
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80skeys wrote:
A friend recently told me that he has read that if you weigh all the humans on the planet, and compare our weight with the combined weight of all other wildlife mammals, we outweigh them 22x

It seems that the ratio is closer to 9x, but quite eye-opening nevertheless - at least for me.
https://www.pnas.org/content/115/25/6506

Though it seems we have more than made up for it in livestock:
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/07/13/1711842115.DC1/1711842115.sapp.pdf
(see pages 87-89)
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coldrain108
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 2:49 pm 
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Monkey Del Mar wrote:
Though it seems we have more than made up for it in livestock:

I was in India one time and someone smugly asked a question about why there is so much more bio-waste accumulated by 3rd world countries...the answer was; there isn't.  The 1st world makes up for the human waste discrepancy by supplying the world with pet waste in compensation.  I wonder how many million bags of dog sh## and cat litter are sitting in landfills right now, not to mention all the landfill toys and cleaning products and veterinary medical supplies.

We're just better at hiding it from view.

We have a tchotchke driven economy.  He/she who dies with the biggest pile of landfill trinkets wins?  Call it the "Wall Mart lifetime garbage accumulation Award".  My Grandma was a top ten contender!  Owl figurines were her go-to landfill collectible.  My neighbor had those stupid commemorative plate collectibles.  I watched as her family threw it all into a dumpster after she died.

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uww
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 4:23 pm 
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Monkey Del Mar wrote:
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2018/07/13/1711842115.DC1/1711842115.sapp.pdf

Thanks, that's a great paper. Apparently there really are plenty of fish in the sea... they outweigh us by 117x!
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Bedivere
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PostThu Sep 03, 2020 6:26 pm 
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neek wrote:
80skeys wrote:
On the packaging it recommends disposing it by burning it in the campfire- says it's safe. So that's what I'm going off of.

There is indeed freeze dried food packaging that is just paper/wax (presumably) - no foil/plastic - and can be safely burned.  e.g. http://www.backcountryfood.org/shop/.  Good to know.

Indeed. This would've been good info to have a few posts back. Most food is packaged in plastic, I haven't seen this brand before.

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moonspots
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PostFri Sep 04, 2020 7:47 am 
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Bedivere wrote:
neek wrote:
80skeys wrote:
On the packaging it recommends disposing it by burning it in the campfire- says it's safe. So that's what I'm going off of.

There is indeed freeze dried food packaging that is just paper/wax (presumably) - no foil/plastic - and can be safely burned.  e.g. http://www.backcountryfood.org/shop/.  Good to know.

Indeed. This would've been good info to have a few posts back. Most food is packaged in plastic, I haven't seen this brand before.

I like it! And especially, I like the photo of the girl (scroll down a bit) holding up one of the pouches. Notice the bandaid on her leg. Authentic!   up.gif

I've marked/saved this link. I've grown a bit tired of the packages I find in the stores - I've forgotten the brand(s) though.

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JonnyQuest
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PostFri Sep 04, 2020 8:58 am 
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I'm a big fan of MJF's pouched food.  For reasons I won't go into, I prefer the pasta options over the lentil and couscous biggrin.gif

I haven't visited their website in a while, but they used to sell in bulk as well.
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Gwen
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PostSat Sep 05, 2020 12:54 am 
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80skeys wrote:
Given that people are allowed to take pack animals into the backcountry (and sometimes cows are allowed to roam), I don't understand the logic of "camping 200 feet from a water source". Supposedly this is because you're not supposed to urinate or defecate near water so as to avoid contaminating it. But with pack animals, cows, and of course a zillion wild animals defecate around water all the time, it seems like a mute point.

Most LNT practices are authored by what is known as Authority of the Resource (as opposed to Authority of the Agency). What this means is that the resource - the natural world in which we are visiting but do not reside - is the guiding author of rules and regulations. The FS (or whoever the land manager is) didn't just come up with a bunch of rules because they could.

In regards to the 200' rule, one reason would be to allow access to the water by the habitants of the area - all the critters that needs fresh water as much as we do. With all the humans camped right in the lakeshore, animals will likely not come to drink. 200' gives them some breathing room. That's one reason, anyway.

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Randito
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PostSat Sep 05, 2020 7:20 am 
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I recall visiting Image Lake some decades ago when the 200 foot rule was a new thing.   The dust pit of beaten down earth rimming the lake from so many people camping right on the lake shore seemed like a good enough reason for the rule to me.

The summer influx of hikers at outstandingly scenic locations is nothing like the impact of the natural species of the Cascades.   

I'm real glad Okn-Wen national forest no longer issues grazing permits in wilderness areas.
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