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Sculpin
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PostThu Oct 29, 2020 10:14 am 
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altasnob wrote:
You would be committing the crime of Criminal Trespass in the Second Degree

Not a scofflaw...nope, not me...but...can a hired goon write you a ticket and then enforce it somehow?  I cannot imagine that the police would come out there for trespassing, they only do that for wealthy locals, not far-off, faceless corporations.

I guess I am supposed to know all the laws.  This one goes in a category with stop signs inside parking lots, can I really get a ticket if I run it?  Not from the mall cop, right? 

We have a few lawyers around here, is there some kind of "delegated authority" statute that allows mall cop types to write legitimate tickets?   confused.gif

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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 29, 2020 10:43 am 
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I doubt it would be criminal trespass but the security guards would write you a civil trespass ticket like private parking lots do. They probably have some attorney on retainer who would write you scary letters with liquidated damages and possibly sue you In district court. You would not really have a case and they could garnish you and make you pay their fees. Not worth the hassle to go over some clearcut land. More fun to bike the road.

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Sculpin
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PostThu Oct 29, 2020 1:56 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
the security guards would write you a civil trespass ticket

Thanks MC.  I looked that up and yep, the security guards would have to pursue civil trespassing penalties.  Only law enforcement can write criminal tickets.

They probably use the entry permit revenue to sue trespassers!

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Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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altasnob
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PostThu Oct 29, 2020 3:04 pm 
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Police do not write criminal tickets. They write police reports and refer them to prosecutors who make the charging decisions. Police can only directly file infractions in court, not criminal charges.

Here's how it could play out if you chose to trespass on the timber land. You get caught by some representative of the timber company. They get your name, or license plate. They call the cops. The cops are unlikely to drive out to investigate but can still write up a police report based on the representations of the timber representative. The cops then forward that to the Pierce County prosecutor's office. The file sits on a prosecutor's desks for months because they have much more important cases to prosecute. But eventually the prosecutor could chose to charge you with Criminal Trespass 2nd (because it is land, not a building) and you would be summonsed to appear in court. You do not even have to have police involved for a prosecutor to charge a case. The prosecutor just has to believe there is evidence you committed a crime.

Could that happen? Yes. Would it likely happen? Probably not. Maybe if you trespassed repeatedly and got caught they would charge you.

A civil trespass is just a piece of paper telling a person they do not have permission to go somewhere the public is normally invited to go to. Like a store. If you get caught shoplifting you will likely get a criminal charge from the prosecutor. But you will also likely receive a civil trespass from the store. This just puts the shoplifter on notice they are no longer allowed in that store. That way, when they chose to disregard the trespass and go into the store, they are committing a crime (criminal trespass first degree, because the store is a building) regardless of whether they are stealing something or not. And if the person does shoplift after they receive a civil trespass from the store the prosecutor can really play hard ball and charge the person with Class B felony Burglary in the Second Degree, which is entering a building with intention to commit a crime. So a person can get charged with burglary for stealing something trivial like a candy bar. This does happen occasionally in Washington.
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rossb
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PostThu Oct 29, 2020 3:33 pm 
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I once served on a jury, and the defendant was charged with stealing meat from a grocery store. He had been caught before, so this time he was charged with burglary. The only witnesses were store personnel (not cops). One of the security guards gave very detailed testimony, and it clear the defendant was guilty. The guy plead guilty after that -- apparently he was too embarrassed. I don't think his charged were reduced either. The meat of his defense (pun intended) had something to do with his attempts to get the charges reduced if he implicated a buyer (a restaurant). My impression was that it failed, and he was charged with burglary.

Anyway, I wouldn't do it. Not worth the risk in my opinion.
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thuja
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PostThu Oct 29, 2020 4:34 pm 
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FWIW the drive to the "trailhead" is long and goes through a lot of logged over land which is not very attractive.  I was only able to do it because I was in a government vehicle and with government employees who had a permit and gate key.  We also had really detailed directions to where the "trail" starts.

I'd second the suggestion of using a bike to go up the westside road.  Next year of course.
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BigBrunyon
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PostThu Oct 29, 2020 7:10 pm 
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rossb wrote:
I once served on a jury, and the defendant was charged with stealing meat from a grocery store. He had been caught before, so this time he was charged with burglary. The only witnesses were store personnel (not cops). One of the security guards gave very detailed testimony, and it clear the defendant was guilty. The guy plead guilty after that -- apparently he was too embarrassed. I don't think his charged were reduced either. The meat of his defense (pun intended) had something to do with his attempts to get the charges reduced if he implicated a buyer (a restaurant). My impression was that it failed, and he was charged with burglary.

Anyway, I wouldn't do it. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

Can't just lay down n die like that guy did. Gotta go down swingin'!!! Go down GAMBLIN'!!! don't matter how absurd your here's the deal statements start gettin'.

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rossb
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PostFri Oct 30, 2020 12:41 pm 
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BigBrunyon wrote:
rossb wrote:
I once served on a jury, and the defendant was charged with stealing meat from a grocery store. He had been caught before, so this time he was charged with burglary. The only witnesses were store personnel (not cops). One of the security guards gave very detailed testimony, and it clear the defendant was guilty. The guy plead guilty after that -- apparently he was too embarrassed. I don't think his charged were reduced either. The meat of his defense (pun intended) had something to do with his attempts to get the charges reduced if he implicated a buyer (a restaurant). My impression was that it failed, and he was charged with burglary.

Anyway, I wouldn't do it. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

Can't just lay down n die like that guy did. Gotta go down swingin'!!! Go down GAMBLIN'!!! don't matter how absurd your here's the deal statements start gettin'.

Ha, yeah. Keep in mind, we were thrilled. We got out of there, and had an interesting story to tell: Meat thieves -- who knew that was a thing (grocery stores I guess -- and a few restaurants).
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Joseph
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PostFri Oct 30, 2020 7:03 pm 
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crock wrote:
Does anybody know anything about accessing Golden Lakes on the west side of Mt Rainier using the logging road on the ridge that is on the south side of the Mowich River?  The land west of the park shows up on Pierce County's website as owned by "Orm Timber Fund".

I'm guessing that the roads west of the park are gated since they are on private land.  Can permission be gotten to go on these lands?

You're talking about next year, right?  Is the reason you want to hike to Golden Lakes via logging roads to the west just for adventure ?  Its about a 10 mile hike from Mowich Lake on the WT.  Stayed there last Sept. on the last night of our WT trip.  Lots of people take the west side road until it ends and either walk or bike the rest of the way to the TH that takes them to Emerald Ridge, or Klapatche Park.  I think accessing by logging roads would be cool too if it was possible. and especially if it cut the distance a little
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