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puzzlr
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PostFri Nov 20, 2020 1:12 pm 
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The Nature Conservancy recently purchased 20 acres of forested land near the town of Roslyn, continuing the organization’s goal of providing forestland access for recreators. ... The acquisition complements the Towns to Teanaway project, a community wide effort to build a regional trail system that will link Roslyn, Ronald, and Cle Elum to the public lands beyond.


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Sculpin
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PostSun Nov 22, 2020 8:16 am 
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This is awesome!  Gobs of public land and no reasonable access.

I looked at satellite maps and it occurred to me that the area that now will have easy access would not appeal to hikers so much, but would be quite valuable to mountain bikers.

So I went poking around on the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance site and found this:

"The other big project we have in the county is continuing work on Towns to Teanaway, which is one of the projects that community GiveBig donations are funding."

It's those pesky mountain bikers again!   agree.gif

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Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
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puzzlr
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PostSun Nov 22, 2020 10:50 pm 
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Coyote Rocks is a fun destination that's accessible by hiking over the ridge from the Roslyn side

Lower Coyote Rocks
Lower Coyote Rocks
Coyote Rocks from view point on Cle Elum ridge
Coyote Rocks from view point on Cle Elum ridge

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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 7:36 am 
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Thanks Monty!

I looked at your flickr images and noticed you found grass widow blooming up there in mid-April.  I will be there for that next year!

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Randito
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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 9:24 am 
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FWIW: I'm 100% in favor of dedicated mountain bike trails and areas such as is being developed around Roslyn and 100% in favor of maintaining the hiker only status of trails in the ALW.   Mixed usage is less fun for all.
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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 10:24 am 
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Randito wrote:
dedicated mountain bike trails and areas such as is being developed around Roslyn

Are dedicated mountain bike trails legal on public land?  IIRC, a mountain biker in Leavenworth told me that they could not build a trail on public land and close it to hikers, not even downhill runs.  Have you heard differently?

This does not apply to private land of course, and there may be some leeway on land that is owned by a public/private partnership, which I think applies to some of the Teanaway area.  Have you heard differently?

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Randito
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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 10:41 am 
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Sculpin wrote:
Are dedicated mountain bike trails legal on public land?  IIRC, a mountain biker in Leavenworth told me that they could not build a trail on public land and close it to hikers, not even downhill runs.  Have you heard differently?

This does not apply to private land of course, and there may be some leeway on land that is owned by a public/private partnership, which I think applies to some of the Teanaway area.  Have you heard differently?

I don't think it is necessary to ban hikers from mountain bike trails.    I think for the most part self selection addresses the issue.

Whether or not pedestrians can be prohibited from mtb trails is a legal question,  but pedestrians are prohibited from many (but not all) limited access highways, so I think if a pattern of serious collisions between hikers and bikers develops appropriate legislation could be crafted.
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 11:51 am 
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According to the Green Trails map some of the downhill trails on Tiger are for MTBs only (good idea).

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Kim Brown
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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 5:21 pm 
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The acquisition has just been announced, and random people on the internet are already arguing about who gets what.   embarassedlaugh.gif

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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 6:38 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
some of the downhill trails on Tiger are for MTBs only (good idea)

I'm not against it.  I don't have that map, can you tell if they are on public or partnership land?

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mb
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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 10:50 pm 
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There's a number mtb-only trails on various public lands in WA.

Example:
https://www.dnr.wa.gov/Tiger
https://www.kingcounty.gov/services/parks-recreation/parks/trails/backcountry-trails/duthie-hill.aspx


Not sure where your friend got their info from. There are certainly many land managers who are fine with 'hiker only' but not 'bicycle only' trails. I believe the USFS is one of them, though they do allow for MTB primary trails which are defacto bike only.
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PostMon Nov 23, 2020 11:55 pm 
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Yes -- for example in Duthie Hill park the "Freeride Trails" are designated "bike only" whereas the "Cross Country Trails" are open to hikers and trail runners as well.

Whether a pedestrian on a "Freeride Trail" is actually subject to citation is kind of beside the point.   

These trails descend steeply and mountain bikers ride them at speeds where dodging a pedestrian would be problematic.   I'm not sure why one would desire to walk the "Freeride Trails" any more than one would want to hike along the shoulder of I-90.

Hiking up East Tiger was one of my favorites when my dog was still alive -- even when the parking lot was packed -- we would see few bikers hiking up and down the road.   And the bikers were generally a pretty friendly lot -- even when my dog was roaming free (as is allowed on East Tiger)  -- an overall much more pleasant experience for FurBall hiking that hiking West Tiger 3, where there always seemed to be at least a few hikers that seem pissed off to see my FurBall trotting long next to me on her six foot leash minding her own business.
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PostTue Nov 24, 2020 10:04 am 
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Both hiker and mountain biker here. Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance has grown in to the largest state-wide mountain bike advocacy group in the US, and I believe is a model for other state's advocacy groups to follow. They are no where near as well funded as WTA but relative to other mountain bike advocacy groups, are very well funded with increasing membership every year.

As others have mentioned, if you want to check out what they build go look at Colonnade under I-5 in Seattle, Duthie Hill, Swan Creek in Tacoma, and Tiger and Raging River. Mountain bikes are not allowed in wilderness, and the Forest Service is reluctant to approve new (legal) mountain bike trails (Forest Service also rarely builds new hiking trails as well). So any new mountain bike trails are normally on fringe and urban forests. DNR, state, county, and city owned lands. These are lands that have been clear cut, still being logged (like Tiger) or were filled with homeless camps (like Swan Creek).

Teanaway Forest already has lots of mountain bike trails, and I've ridden them from Rosylyn. Maybe I was unknowingly trespassing when I did but glad they are improving access to the trails there. The quality of a mountain bike trail is directly correlated to how much maintenance they receive. In general, the trails around Cle Elum are in need of maintenance and repair compared to say, trails around Leavenworth and Wenatchee. I always thought down the road, biking around Cle Elum could rival mountain bike epicenters like Bend.

The new model of mountain bike trail building uses small, four foot wide trail dozers to build smooth, sculpted trails. These trails are fun for bikers to ride, but also are intelligently built to handle erosion from water and heavy trail use. They use a ski run like ratting system with trails rated green through double diamond. For the safety of hikers and the bikers, hikers would not want to walk up or down the black diamond or double diamond trails, even if it was not specifically forbidden. Normally, hikers are welcome to hike green and blue trails. New trails are now often directional, so bikers can only go down certain trails, and then there is a designated uphill climbing trail. Hikers can go both up and down the biking climbing route and this would be the ideal hiking trail to use because you would not have to worry about a downhill mountain biker flying by you. This makes it much safer for heavy biker, and hiker, use on the trails.

I don't feel Evergreen is anti-hiker in any way. If you think they are not building enough hiker trails in an area, contact them. I get the impression they are always in favor of more trails, for all users, and it is normally the agency who owns the land who is limiting them to how many trails they can construct. They have money, and the equipment, to build new trails and if building a hiker specific trail allows them to also build a new biking trail, they will do it.

Here's an example of a machine built mountain bike trail at Duthie Hill:

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