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altasnob
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 5:29 pm 
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Ski wrote:
As the population increases - as it doubtless will - DNR managed units will become ever closer to population centers.
The logical and inevitable result will be that you'll be using that same argument when they're putting in subdivisions out on the west side of the Olympic Peninsula at the lower end of the Clearwater River,

The purpose of the State's Growth Management Act is to concentrate growth in existing metro areas. So I doubt we will see any massive housing development on the West side of the Olympics in any of our life times. And if you want Washingtonians, who are used to living in large homes, on large parcels of land, and driving everywhere, to voluntarily move to dense urban areas you need to maintain the ability to stay connected with nature.

The idea of cutting down trees on state trust forest land to fund public schools was created when Washington became a state in 1889. A lot has changed in Washington since 1889. Currently, a little more than 4 million people live in the central Puget Sound area. The Puget Sound Regional Council forecasts that to increase to 5.8 million people by 2050. People complain about crowded trails today. Imagine what it will be like when there is an additional 1.8 million living around Seattle area.

DNR trust lands near urban areas like Wallace Falls, Tiger, Green Mountain (Bremerton) and Capital Forest are ideal areas to concentrate additional outdoor recreational pressure resulting from increased population. Not only are these forests close to urban areas, they are not bound by the laws that prevent trail development in National Forests, National Parks, and wilderness areas. On DNR trust lands, you can build hiking, biking, ebiking, equestrian, and dirtbike trails all in the same area. Most of the new mountain bike trails built in Washington in the last decade have been on DNR lands. The economic benefit these trails provide to a variety of users greatly outweighs the small amount of money the state receives from harvesting trees on these areas. DNRs management of these areas is archaic and needs to change.
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Sky Hiker
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 6:34 pm 
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I believe you over exaggerate the benefit a trail in this area without the appeal of a lake, view, old growth, etc might have. Income to the state from a timber sale, land sale, or swap would far outweigh economic benefits of letting it remain as is.
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 8:11 pm 
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Sky Hiker wrote:
Income to the state from a timber sale, land sale, or swap would far outweigh economic benefits of letting it remain as is.

But those who object to timber harvesting on DNR lands refuse to address that point.
Possibly because they cannot come up with any cogent arguments to refute the argument that the public school systems of Washington State need operating capital, and it has to come from somewhere.
Raising entrance fees to these areas to an amount that would generate revenues equal to what the timber sales currently generate would unquestionably bring out people with their torches and pitchforks, not to mention restrict entry into those areas to those able to pony up astronomical fees for their "Discover" passes. (Remember that former Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke's proposal to raise entrance fees to $70.00 in some National Parks didn't even begin to address the $12+ billion dollar maintenance backlog, and was the catalyst for a huge outcry not only here on nwhikers.net, but nationwide.)

====

In other news:

Metro Seattle Hotel room vacancies are the lowest in the western United States, according to a report released earlier today. Occupancy rates are down to about 25%.
This equates to a $625 million dollar decrease in tax revenue that will be collected by the City of Seattle.

Go ahead - Please tell me again why it's such a great idea to implement policies that further cripple local governments and cause greater challenges to those who are trying to maintain infrastructure, operate governmental offices, and public education systems.

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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 8:14 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
The idea of cutting down trees on state trust forest land to fund public schools was created when Washington became a state in 1889.

You would do well to research the actual reasons for the founding of what is now the Capitol State Forest, and the date it happened.

"You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

- U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan


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If you are suggesting that these policies are no longer valid based on the year in which they were instituted, I would suggest you consider that Mr. Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence no less than 244 years ago.

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I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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altasnob
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 8:24 pm 
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The other DNR lands with mountain bike trails, like Tiger, don't have lakes or views and are absolutely packed to capacity. The attraction is not the views, it is the trails themselves. The Skykomish valley has very little mountain biking trails despite being very close to the urban area. The area around Wallace Falls would be a great location for new mountain bike trails, as well as hiking, ebike, equestrian, and dirt bikes. Just designate some of the area motorized, some non-motorized, and some hiker only. Mountain biking is booming in popularity and I can't think of any trail system within an hour of Seattle that would be considered underused.

It is possible to build new trails and still harvest some of the forest. I just think the focus should be recreation first, and timber harvest second. City of Bellingham recently paid $3 million for a permanent easement on Galbraith tree farm that will allow the mountain bike trails to continue to exist there in perpetuity. The tree farm is still able to harvest trees but the trails will be rebuilt on harvested areas. Galbraith is private property and not DNR land.
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altasnob
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Ski wrote:
You would do well to research the actual reasons for the founding of what is now the Capitol State Forest, and the date it happened.

This map suggest Capital Forest was acquired by the state for school trust lands (part of the 3 million acres DNR manages for this purpose) on 11/11/1889, the date Washington became a state.
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PostThu Dec 03, 2020 11:16 pm 
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altasnob wrote:
"...This map..."

see HERE

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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 6:19 am 
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Are these masses of immigrants to Seattle being forced to move there?  They need to do research prior to moving and find out that the trails are crowded, rather than move here, be disappointed that the area is not the same as their fantasy, and then demand No Logging Ever.

Here is an article that seems a bit more like an editorial.  Apparently it isn't a clearcut, it is a partial cut and leave trees will be left standing.  It may be a heavier cut than lay people want to see, but it is not a clearcut.  Note that the writer only mentions the minimum number of leave trees per acre.  She did not even use an average.

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/theres-going-to-be-some-tears-over-160-acre-timber-harvest/?fbclid=IwAR3NnrqjkayArpDQKFU0G3vBy-t9CIXccX_FpcfZmpPD7JlizJCPOGZxmvg

Please tell me why you can't ride your bike or hike through a working forest?  I did it all the time at Randle.  I'd run into more wildlife there than in areas like Krause Ridge.  Grouse, owls, hawks, deer, elk, and bears were hanging out in the "industrial" forest land.  It was quiet.  Roads were gated but the rules allowed non-motorized recreation.

The purists were up impacting places like the Goat Rocks and Mt Rainier.

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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 6:43 am 
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altasnob wrote:
The other DNR lands with mountain bike trails, like Tiger, don't have lakes or views and are absolutely packed to capacity. The attraction is not the views, it is the trails themselves. The Skykomish valley has very little mountain biking trails despite being very close to the urban area. The area around Wallace Falls would be a great location for new mountain bike trails, as well as hiking, ebike, equestrian, and dirt bikes. Just designate some of the area motorized, some non-motorized, and some hiker only. Mountain biking is booming in popularity and I can't think of any trail system within an hour of Seattle that would be considered underused.

It is possible to build new trails and still harvest some of the forest. I just think the focus should be recreation first, and timber harvest second. City of Bellingham recently paid $3 million for a permanent easement on Galbraith tree farm that will allow the mountain bike trails to continue to exist there in perpetuity. The tree farm is still able to harvest trees but the trails will be rebuilt on harvested areas. Galbraith is private property and not DNR land.

If you know anything about the area at all you would know that there is extensive mountain biking, equestrian, hiking, hunting & wildlife viewing is already done there behind non motorized gated roads that have been there from past logging units. So that need is full filled. Just drive up the Kellogg lake road. So your desire to fulfill these needs is satisfied by logging units
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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 6:53 am 
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timberghost wrote:
If you know anything about the area at all you would know that there is extensive mountain biking, equestrian, hiking, hunting & wildlife viewing is already done there behind non motorized gated roads that have been there from past logging units. So that need is full filled. Just drive up the Kellogg lake road. So your desire to fulfill these needs is satisfied by logging units

That's what I was thinking, but I don't know much about the area.  I also thought it had pretty much been logged over in the past--is not "pristine".

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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 8:37 am 
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Sky Hiker wrote:
I believe you over exaggerate the benefit a trail in this area without the appeal of a lake, view, old growth, etc might have.

The world has changed a bit since you and Ski were the trendsetters.   cool.gif

A lot of trail use these days around urban areas comes from folks "getting in their steps."  In some cases, they just like to please those little thingies on their wrist, but some get a discount on their health insurance.  As a retired guy wandering around the urban woods, I pretty much see two types of folks, those being walked by a dog and those feeding steps into a little wrist device.

The Washington Park Arboretum is finishing up a rebuild that basically accounts for the fact that people are mostly visiting to get their steps, not to look at exotic trees.

So yes, any trail in the vicinity of Wallace Falls will fill up.  We need more trails, not more clear cuts.

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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 9:29 am 
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Sculpin wrote:
Sky Hiker wrote:
I believe you over exaggerate the benefit a trail in this area without the appeal of a lake, view, old growth, etc might have.

The world has changed a bit since you and Ski were the trendsetters.   cool.gif

A lot of trail use these days around urban areas comes from folks "getting in their steps."  In some cases, they just like to please those little thingies on their wrist, but some get a discount on their health insurance.  As a retired guy wandering around the urban woods, I pretty much see two types of folks, those being walked by a dog and those feeding steps into a little wrist device.

The Washington Park Arboretum is finishing up a rebuild that basically accounts for the fact that people are mostly visiting to get their steps, not to look at exotic trees.

So yes, any trail in the vicinity of Wallace Falls will fill up.  We need more trails, not more clear cuts.

So, why care if an area is harvested?  They only care about their steps.  I'd say that's a good point in favor of the timber sale.

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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 9:54 am 
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treeswarper wrote:
They only care about their steps.

Where did you get that idea?  How would you know?   huh.gif

You don't see them doing laps in parking lots, why would you expect them in a clearcut?   rolleyes.gif

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altasnob
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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 10:18 am 
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timberghost wrote:
If you know anything about the area at all you would know that there is extensive mountain biking, equestrian, hiking, hunting & wildlife viewing is already done there behind non motorized gated roads that have been there from past logging units. So that need is full filled. Just drive up the Kellogg lake road. So your desire to fulfill these needs is satisfied by logging units

All DNR land is open to recreation so yes, some (like Treeswarper) enjoy hiking logging roads through clear cuts. But I don't believe this area is extensively used for recreational use compared to say, Tiger Mountain. Trailforks includes pretty much every good legal mountain bike trail on their map. For comparison, here is Tiger Mountain area (purple lines are roads, colored trails are marked by their difficulty):


And here is the DNR land around Wallace Falls:


And yes, you can have trails through clear cuts, but most prefer to hike or bike through forest rather than a clear cut. As I have stated before, I believe DNRs purported mission to manage these forests close to urban areas for their timber revenue rather than recreation and preservation is misguided in the modern world we now live in. The area we are talking about is a very minuscule amount of the 3 million acres of DNR land.
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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 04, 2020 5:46 pm 
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Sculpin wrote:
A lot of trail use these days around urban areas comes from folks "getting in their steps."

And then read on a bit more

Sculpin wrote:
A lot of trail use these days around urban areas comes from folks "getting in their steps."  In some cases, they just like to please those little thingies on their wrist, but some get a discount on their health insurance.


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