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kiliki
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kiliki
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 Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:30 pm |
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| Quote: | | My guess is that they fear an increase in xc skiiers will eventually end up with a beef against snowmobilers, as typically does happen with human powered vs motorized use; and because it's close to the wilderness boundary, snowmobilers may fear eventually being ousted. (I think that's a valid fear, to be honest) |
Has that actually been happening, where non-motorized users have been able to oust snowmobilers from an area that they have long used? I am a novice nordic skier it's been very surprising to me how hard it is to find a quiet place where motorized/snowmobile use isn't allowed. They're even allowed at Mt Rainier NP on 410 and Westside Rd in winter. I'm not even allowed to walk a DOG on 410 in winter (and yes, MORA staff did personally stop me as I was doing this last year to let me know).
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John Morrow
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| kiliki wrote: | | Quote: | | My guess is that they fear an increase in xc skiiers will eventually end up with a beef against snowmobilers, as typically does happen with human powered vs motorized use; and because it's close to the wilderness boundary, snowmobilers may fear eventually being ousted. (I think that's a valid fear, to be honest) |
Has that actually been happening, where non-motorized users have been able to oust snowmobilers from an area that they have long used? I am a novice nordic skier it's been very surprising to me how hard it is to find a quiet place where motorized/snowmobile use isn't allowed. They're even allowed at Mt Rainier NP on 410 and Westside Rd in winter. I'm not even allowed to walk a DOG on 410 in winter (and yes, MORA staff did personally stop me as I was doing this last year to let me know). |
Short answer: no. Plus, snowmobiles are prohibited in Wilderness which this area is on the boundary of. For the portion of the area inside the wilderness there should be no user conflicts.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
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Kim Brown
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No; but that doesn't mean there won't be a beef about it, and that the non motorized users won't begin to complain about motorized users even if they're not doing anything wrong.
I guess I was a bit over the top about the concern. Sometimes hikers drive me crazy.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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John Morrow
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Location: Roslyn |
| Kim Brown wrote: | | No; but that doesn't mean there won't be a beef about it, and that the non motorized users won't begin to complain about motorized users even if they're not doing anything wrong.
I guess I was a bit over the top about the concern. Sometimes hikers drive me crazy. |
Yup, how true.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
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altasnob
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
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altasnob
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Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:26 pm |
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Keep in mind, Fortune Creek Huts are snowmobilers as well. From their website on how people are getting into the huts:
| Quote: | | Camp is approximately 13.5 miles from the nearest plowed road in the winter. Fortune Creek Huts offers a shuttle service for groups via a snow machine that will cover the first 11 miles (1,700 ft. in elevation) of the trip. Once up valley, all groups will be responsible for the last 2-2.5 miles (1,800 ft. climb) into camp. On the morning of your first day, your group will meet at the Salmon La-Sac SnoPark. |
99% of people venturing to the area of the huts in the winter do so via snowmobile. I guess the huts could increase the amount of motorized, non-motorized conflicts on the first few miles of the road out of Salmon La-Sac snowpark, where there are snowshoers and xc-skiers. But we're talking about a few additional snowmobiles a day. Advanced snowmobilers can legally snowmobile right to the front door of the hut. The reason Fortune Creek Huts are making people hike in the last 1,800 ft is they can tow people, or fit multiple people on the sled, for the first 11 miles of road, which is the Salmon La Sac road you drive on in the Summer. After that, you are traveling up Fortune Creek on a steep summer 4wd road and it would be difficult to haul guests up this last part.
The Washington State Snowmobile Association's main beef is this last 2 miles to the hut. Advanced snowmobilers will be blasting up to the high country so they can high mark terrain and get their kicks. While the hut guests will be skinning up this path. The snowmobilers are pissed that they will have to share the 4wd trail with the skiers because right now, the only people that go up there are snowmobilers, and snowmobilers that are using sleds to access backcountry skiing terrain.
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altasnob
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altasnob
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:34 am |
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Anyone know what's up with the funky wilderness boundary at Van Epps pass? The boundary follows the Kittitas-Chelan boundary, which also follows the mountain crest (which makes sense). But right at Van Epps pass there is a large swath cut out on the NE-side of Van Epps pass. Why wasn't this area included in the wilderness?
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John Morrow
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The dotted black line through the pass is a continuation of the jeep trail formerly a mine to market road for a mine claim that I believe was active at time of Wilderness designation. Good observation.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”-Mary Oliver
“A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.”
― MLK Jr.
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:41 am |
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It sounds like the complaint here is that this is bad and unfair because snowmobiles won't be able to get away with playing in the Wilderness anymore?
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Kim Brown
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| altasnob wrote: | | Anyone know what's up with the funky wilderness boundary at Van Epps pass? The boundary follows the Kittitas-Chelan boundary, which also follows the mountain crest (which makes sense). But right at Van Epps pass there is a large swath cut out on the NE-side of Van Epps pass. Why wasn't this area included in the wilderness? |
I mentioned it earlier in the thread. Or maybe it was another thread. Whatever.
Louise Marshall, of Signpost Magazine, created an entity called Goat Mountain Associates, with first objective being to purchase the land at Van Epps Pass during the days ALW boundary was being hammered out. The funding source was Signpost subscribers. The offer Goat Mountain Associates made wasn't accepted.
Goat Mtn Associates tried to purchase a few other parcels here and there, but so far as I know they weren't successful either; neither was Goat Mtn Associates after time - I haven't found anything about it, so it didn't survive. Back then, Signpost was truly grass roots, and that she raised enough money to make any kind of a reasonable offer is awesome.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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altasnob
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altasnob
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:30 am |
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I think it is this specific swath of non-wilderness land that has pitted snowmobilers against the hut operator here. Advanced snowmobilers, and snowmobilers who park at Van Epps and then skin up to ski, travel up the ridge to Scatter Peaks and then drop in from the ridge to the N, NE facing bowl. They then have an easy trail back up to Van Epps. If the hut goes in, they then have to share this bowl with a bunch of skiers, where as right now they get it all to themselves. And this specific bowl is fought after because it faces N, NE (good snow in winter) and has a road at the bottom leading up to the Van Epps pass (so a snowmobiler or snowmobile-skier can lap it all day without having to work for anything).
Seems like the reasons this area was excluded from wilderness no longer exists so Congress should make it part of the wilderness, which would solve the snowmobile-skier conflict here.
 philfort
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Kim Brown
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| altasnob wrote: | | Seems like the reasons this area was excluded from wilderness no longer exists so Congress should make it part of the wilderness, which would solve the snowmobile-skier conflict here. |
This is exactly what I was talking about when I said the snowmobilers have a valid concern about being completely ousted when non motorized users come on the scene. 
But at least you're presenting ideas for compromise.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
slabbyd
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
slabbyd
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altasnob
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altasnob
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:40 pm |
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Was Goat Mountain Associates attempt to purchase this area and make it private property because they wanted to preserve motorized use of this bowl? The now defunct mine had to be a big reason this area wasn't included as wilderness. What we have here is snowmobilers and 4wd in summer getting mad at a commercial operator for using a snowmobile and 4wd to get more people into this area. This isn't a motorized, versus non-motorized debate. It's a motorized versus commercial motorized debate.
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slabbyd
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slabbyd
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:40 pm |
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| altasnob wrote: | | If the hut goes in, they then have to share this bowl with a bunch of skiers, where as right now they get it all to themselves. |
No one wants more people in an already packed backcountry scene. Or in the handful of places not yet packed. The idea of a similar in the Twin Sisters erks me because it’s one of the few places off 542 where you can find solitude (both from skiers and snowmobiles) due to lengthy access.
My impression is that pretty much every functioning commercial hut is in an area that’s simply not accessible (or accessed) by other users. Think heli access in Canada. Or snowmobile/skier accessed yurts in the Wallowas (no one around).
Moving in on others turf, particularly for a private profit based hut, just isn’t going to go over well.
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altasnob
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altasnob
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Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:45 pm |
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| slabbyd wrote: | | Moving in on others turf, particularly for a private profit based hut, just isn’t going to go over well. |
That's fine, but basically what you are saying is there should never be a commercial hut in the Washington Cascades because there simply isn't a spot that hasn't already been claimed by some user group. Van Epps pass is one of the more desecrated areas of the Cascades with roads and mines. If you are going to put a hut somewhere, seems like this is as good place as any.
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Kim Brown
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| altasnob wrote: | | Was Goat Mountain Associates attempt to purchase this area and make it private property because they wanted to preserve motorized use of this bowl? |
No; I'm sorry; I always assume people know Louise Marshall/Signpost - WTA relationship and motives, and did not explain very well. It was to preserve it from industry. Louise Marshall was an important mover & shaker for the hiking community.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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