Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Crystal Mountain, Alterra, and USFS Leases
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Randito
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Randito
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PostThu Sep 30, 2021 9:49 am 
Crystal's special use permit is granted by the Forest Service. If you got a beef with the paid parking policy, let the Forest Service know. https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/about-forest/offices/?cid=stelprdb5238242 Political pressure doesn't hurt either https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative https://www.senate.gov/states/WA/intro.htm

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CAS
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CAS
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PostThu Jan 06, 2022 12:00 pm 
Alterra made their announcement; $30/day to park unless you hold a season pass. Also, even with a pass, all cars must have reservations for weekends/holidays. I am not at all sure that Alterra can impose the fee/reservation on the people who already own property within the Crystal boundary (there are many ski clubs with lodges and condos up there). I am sure the SUP allows for access and not exclusive control.

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Randito
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Randito
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PostThu Jan 06, 2022 6:52 pm 
FWIW: Crystal has announced a new policy. Now on weekends, reservations will be required for parking and only season pass holders can make a parking reservation. They have stopped selling day tickets on weekends through mid March. It appears that ski tourers will need to use the bus service or arrive very early before the parking attendants start working and risk getting a parking ticket and/or booting/towing. https://www.crystalmountainresort.com/media/news/the-way-forward

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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostFri Jan 07, 2022 1:24 pm 
Sitzmark is advertising for Volunteer Ski Patrollers. That would mean no pay at this non profit local little hill. up.gif up.gif They must be getting ready to open.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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kiliki
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kiliki
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PostSat Jan 08, 2022 2:53 pm 
Randito wrote:
FWIW: Crystal has announced a new policy. Now on weekends, reservations will be required for parking and only season pass holders can make a parking reservation. They have stopped selling day tickets on weekends through mid March. It appears that ski tourers will need to use the bus service or arrive very early before the parking attendants start working and risk getting a parking ticket and/or booting/towing. https://www.crystalmountainresort.com/media/news/the-way-forward
I think it's the only way. I would WAY rather not be able to get a parking reservation than drive all the way there to find full parking lots. The parking reservation system goes into effect next weekend, so it's still a free for all right now. I got a text notification at 7:59 this morning that parking was full. There have already been, I think, 4 parkouts this season.

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altasnob
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PostSun Jan 09, 2022 8:38 am 
There is a sign as you leave Enumclaw telling you lots are full. And as you mention, you get can texts, or in some places on the drive up, 4g, to get updates that the lot is full. So I don't have much sympathy for people that make it past Enumclaw and drive all the way up there only to find out in the parking lots are full (they need to be checking on their way up and turn around). This will be a complete mess. Is Crystal going to have someone standing in the road scanning every single driver who passes to ensure they have a reservation? The alternative (walking around checking plates) won't work. Do non paying customers (i.e. uphill travelers) need a reservation? What happens when people have a reservation and no show (both paying and non-paying customers)? Does their reservation spot go to waste? Do they suffer punishment for no showing? What if you just want to go check the place out for 20 minutes? Bachelor had parking reservations last year and in my visit, it seemed to work pretty well. But those reservations were in place because of COVID, not overcrowding, as is the case with Crystal. The road to Bachelor, and parking lots, are much larger and able to accommodate the masses better. Plus, Bachelor's main parking lot is flat and paved and they were able to rope off different sections to solve all the questions I ask above. Also, as you approached Bachelor you were divided into multiple vehicle lanes so multiple checkers could be working at once. Bachelor has the space to do something like this, Crystal does not. If a backcountry skier or snowshoer wants to sue Crystal and the Forest Service for charging them to access public land, I fully support (and anticipate) that lawsuit. Crystal gets to profit off leasing the public's land. They get taxpayers to plow and maintain 410. Crystal plows the parking lot and the boulevard, the State plows 410. But again, Crystal doesn't have to pay for the boulevard maintenance costs. I am not sure Crystal charging for non-paying customers is legal and if it is, it would have to reasonable and connected to their plowing costs (I assume Crystal has gotten the blessing of the USFS for their idea, but that doesn't mean its legal). It appears Crystal is implementing this program as a way to get people to carpool and to just discourage people from coming up there. But they created this problem by overselling season passes. In short, a colossal, out of state, private equity company is making record profits selling season passes to the masses, but then claims they have to charge non-paying customers $30 to park because it's too crowded and they need be able to sell even more season passes to the masses. At some point the public needs to stand up and take back their land.

Sculpin
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Randito
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PostSun Jan 09, 2022 9:26 am 
The only way the legal issues are going to be worked out is via some sort of court action. E.g. someone will need to park up there without a reservation and get a ticket and then contest it. Or suing the USFS that it didn't follow the correct procedure in allowing the lease holder to adopt these rules. I don't know whether what is being done is actually a violation of the CFR. The court ruling that clarified where the USFS may require a permit to park was a victory for free access in many cases, but it also established that a fee for parking may be made when there are sufficient improvements to the facility. Crystal certainly has the required number of improvements. https://www.sgvtribune.com/lifestyle/20140704/court-decision-puts-us-forest-services-adventure-pass-program-in-jeopardy

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altasnob
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PostSun Jan 09, 2022 9:52 am 
What improvements has Crystal made for the backcountry skier? The backcountry skier drives up, parks, and starts hiking. At most, they might use the dungeon like restroom at the base area. The parking lots are still mostly all dirt. Crystal's only legitimate argument for charging backcountry skiers to park is that Crystal pays to have the parking lot, and 410 plowed. Ok, then charge a reasonable fee related to this, to all backcountry users, on all days (Oregon snowpark daily fee is $4, not $30 like Crystal is now charging). Instead, Crystal is only charging backcountry skiers on weekends. It is obvious this is not to recapture costs Crystal spends plowing, but instead to deter people from coming. I don't see how overcrowding due to business choices by a business could ever justify charging the public to use their land. Maybe a better way of doing this is to have several lots remain first come, first served, for any type of user (Upper C, D, E, and F lots). Then A, B, and C lot they can do their reservation system. That way, backcountry skiers, and paying customers without reservations, would always be able to get up early and get a spot (just like they can today).

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altasnob
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PostSun Jan 09, 2022 9:57 am 
These issues are all fascinating to me because from my perspective, ski resorts leasing USFS have become too corporate, and less mom and pop. Stevens doesn't even attempt to run their lifts anymore because they know no matter how terrible of an experience it is for the customer, people will still by the Epic pass so they can go to Whistler and other resorts on the pass. I think the Seattle area is the perfect test location to do something about this. This is the place that sent our NBA team packing because we were sick of subsidizing greedy billion dollar companies. I see large corporate ski areas like Alterra (Crystal) and Vail (Stevens) as no different than an NBA team. Shut em down and send them packing. If it means there is no ski area at Crystal and Stevens for a decade or so, so be it. It's not the way the USFS should be managing and using the public's land.

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Randito
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Randito
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PostSun Jan 09, 2022 10:58 am 
altasnob wrote:
What improvements has Crystal made for the backcountry skier?
The road and the lot are plowed, there are restrooms, there are security services, the Crystal Ski Patrol evaluates snow safety and closes uphill travel during period of high risk. The lower portion of the route to areas south are groomed. Beer is available at the base area, as well as a ski shop to purchase forgotten items. Backcountry skiers aren't excluded from skiing on USFS lands in the area, just from driving their own car and parking. They can take the free shuttle bus from Enumclaw.

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altasnob
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PostSun Jan 09, 2022 2:25 pm 
The privilege of buying a $10 beer post skiing is an improvement? Why do the hundreds of other ski areas on leased USFS land not feel the need to try to charge backcountry skiers? Why is Crystal the only one? The majority of USFS land accessed from Crystal boulevard is not in the ski area boundary, and not even in the much larger ski area permit area boundary. One can go backcountry skiing from the Crystal parking lot for the day and remain 100% outside of the ski area and not be subject to Crystal's uphill travel bans or any of Crystal's authority. People seem to forget the ski area is just a small part of lands accessed from the end of that road. If Crystal woke up one day and said dammit, we need to start charging those freeloading backcountry skiers because they are taking advantage of the plowed road and parking lot, that would be one thing. But that's not the case. Crowds are the issue. Not freeloading. Crystal is trying to scare away backcountry skiers because they take up valuable parking space. Hell, they are even trying to scare away their own paying customers. They don't want people to come. And they can get away with this attitude because they have already sold 20,000+ Ikon passes (the money is in the bank). With Vail running Stevens into the ground, Crystal knows those people will still come back no matter how awful their experience is.

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Randito
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Randito
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PostSun Jan 09, 2022 4:09 pm 
altasnob wrote:
If Crystal woke up one day and said dammit, we need to start charging those freeloading backcountry skiers because they are taking advantage of the plowed road and parking lot, that would be one thing. But that's not the case.
There was much gnashing of teeth a month ago when they were charging for parking on Friday-Saturday-Sunday for non season pass holders.

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Dick B
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Dick B
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PostMon Jan 10, 2022 10:49 am 
I really don't regret giving up skiing.

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thunderhead
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PostMon Jan 10, 2022 9:08 pm 
We need more ski areas. And to expand the ones we currently have.

melc
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Randito
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Randito
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PostMon Jan 10, 2022 9:25 pm 
The skiing situation in the Seattle area is somewhat unusual -- ski areas within "day trip" distance of a metropolitan area combined with fickle weather conditions wholely unsuitable for people booking a week long "family ski vacation". The ski areas around SLC have similar problems -- but can also rationally invest in on slope lodging for people coming for a week or two. If Seattlites are willing to travel -- an most of the rest of the county must do to ski -- there are many less crowded options.

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