Forum Index > Trail Talk > Bathtub Lakes on Mt Pilchuck (Pinnacle Lake route)
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostSat May 14, 2022 2:07 pm 
Are you Putins really trying to censor the internet to keep a "secret" that's got a dozen arrows pointing the way in?  If the graffiti can stay, so can the map and routable GPS track.

I posted that because Chief Joseph said he wanted to visit and gets lost easily.  For every person that speaks up, the are 15 more.  I'm leaving these files available because they might benefit somebody.

brewermd
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman



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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
PostSat May 14, 2022 2:18 pm 
Every day an immense amount of GPS route data is being uploaded to platforms like Strava, Garmin, Peakbagger, Suunto, etc. It's only a matter of time until a couple smart software engineers aggregate this data and put a search engine in front of it. The ball has already started rolling with Strava's heatmap and Caltopo's "Shared CalTopo Maps" features. I personally disable all contributions to these features. But I suspect I am in the minority with this as these are not the default settings.


Obviously navigation skills are critical for crosscountry travel. But modern GPS devices can give turn by turn instructions if fed a GPX file.

Times are changing.

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Flickr | Strava

EternalBlue
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Randito
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Randito
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PostSat May 14, 2022 3:00 pm 
The concept of "sekret" has a fundamental flaw.  It identifies certain people as being in "the in crowd" that are entitled to exclusive use of a section of public land and others that aren't deemed worthy should be excluded.

The concept is rooted in the idea that one set of users are special and deserving of exceptional privilege.

As someone that has hiked in the Cascades for six decades and enjoys seeing new generations of people find joy in the mountains I reject the concept of "sekret" in favor of "sharing the land responsibly"

brewermd, Cyclopath, zimmertr
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Roly Poly
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PostSat May 14, 2022 4:14 pm 
Seems to me that most hikers are focusing on Mailbox Peak, Colchuck lake , Blanca lake and the latest fad, Mt McCausland.  Iíd be surprised if any off trail routes ever get mobbed . Iím in several FB groups and no one is interested in exploring beyond the instagram selfie places.

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zephyr
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zephyr
aka friendly hiker
PostSat May 14, 2022 4:21 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
Are you P___s really trying to censor the internet to keep a "secret" that's got a dozen arrows pointing the way in?

Such a low blow.  Very disrespectful.  This has been a very telling conversation.   ~z

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rubywrangler
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PostSat May 14, 2022 4:35 pm 
I donít see where anyone suggested that the location is secret. Itís labeled on the usgs map ffs. The route is quite obvious and as mentioned in several posts, the information is out there already. But do we really need to pile on with gps tracks and posts calling it ďparadiseĒ? As CJ said, this thread is likely to cause more damage than some old paint.

Also yeah the name calling is pretty cool  rolleyes.gif

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Waterman
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PostSat May 14, 2022 4:39 pm 
Problem with sharing the land "responsibly" with red dots leading the way is you end up with a Jade lake issue. Where crowds descend on a fragile area that cannot endure the foot traffic. Tik tok anyone?

As this issue has been debated on this site over the years I'll leave at that.

John Roper in a trip report on a area of the newly established Wild Sky expressed gratitude to those who had been there before who had left evidence of their passing but no route descriptions. Allowing him the pleasure of finding his own way through difficult terrain.

Reinhold Messner advocated for the need of blank spaces on maps. The future is coming when red dots will lead the way. No need to be in a hurry.

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference.
Robert Frost

philfort  Anne Elk
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Dusty Trale
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PostSat May 14, 2022 4:56 pm 
I have a copy of the book, "Pilchuck, The Life of a Mountain" that puzzlr wrote about. Only mine is older from when the book was first published by Superior Publishing Co. of Seattle back in 1949. So the name "Iodine Gulch" has been around at least since the 1940's. 20 Lakes Basin is shown on the map on the instead cover of the book.

The route to Twenty Lakes Basin is described in the book "Monte Cristo Area, A Complete Outdoor Guide" by Harry J. Majors and Richard C. McCollum under the scramble section. The book was published in 1977.

It is also in Karen Sykes book, "Hidden Hikes in Western Washington, published in 2002 and listed as, "Twenty Lakes Basin via Iodine Gulch". It mentions the yellow painted boulder.

zimmertr
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Anne Elk
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Anne Elk
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PostSat May 14, 2022 5:18 pm 
Randito wrote:
The concept of "sekret" has a fundamental flaw.  It identifies certain people as being in "the in crowd" that are entitled to exclusive use of a section of public land and others that aren't deemed worthy should be excluded. The concept is rooted in the idea that one set of users are special and deserving of exceptional privilege.

That's just virtue signalling; and we'll just have to (again) agree to disagree.  wink.gif

It's not about entitlement. It's about letting people make their own discoveries and not turning every blinkin' inch of the world into a crowd magnet by over-advertising. Over-tourism is a real thing; even in urban areas.

Randito wrote:
I reject the concept of "sekret" in favor of "sharing the land responsibly"

Well, that ship sailed a few billion people ago (not to mention Instagram posts).

Biologists have lots data on things like how many square miles of territory are needed to adequately support a certain population of grizzly bears, spotted owls; how much trampling the high alpine can take; but no one investigates how many users per day/week/year an area can tolerate before it's degraded beyond recovery.  Oh wait, I guess the USFS has, which is why we now have visitor quotas in lotsa places.

Most of us go out to the wilds for certain qualities not found elsewhere: quiet, natural beauty, solitude (or, at least relative solitude). If more of those qualities can be preserved for a little bit longer by not plastering info about these remnants of heaven all over social media, and advocating for less visibility, then yeah, I guess I'm guilty of ... "something". moon.gif

dixon, fourteen410
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Forestdancer
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PostSat May 14, 2022 5:52 pm 
Twenty Lakes Basin (the name I've always known it by) used to be yes, MY "secret, sacred" place. I learned about it from my "adopted" grandma, Enid Nordlund, a friend of Hap Annen's, who painted the rocks--in the 40's if I remember correctly.  Yes, the paint is disgusting, but at this point, it's history, and I would be sad to see it removed. It's not doing any environmental damage at this point, but removing it might. I have Hap's 1961 copy of Beckey's Climbing guide, signed by Dee Molenaar, with the inscription, "as you can see on page 131 [Mt. Pilchuck], we keep OUR route a secret, reserved only for the Pilchuck park pioneers."

It was my favorite place in the world, or at least on this continent. I would go there to be alone, to pray and do ritual, knowing I could skinny-dip without fear...I found a dead mountain goat there once, then they disappeared for awhile, although I think I saw tracks and wool the last time I was there. When I was in labor (for 30 hours!) at Providence Hospital, I asked for a room with a view to the east, so I could focus on the peak of Pilchuck and go to 20 Lakes in my mind.

Sometime in the 90's or so, the FS considered building a trail to the basin, but didn't because they decided it was too fragile to handle the traffic. So yes, it's OK to let people discover it on their own. After it got put in a book (I think there may have been one before Sykes' even), I not only began to see more people, but more trash. I haven't been there in years, because the road has become so terrible and I don't have a super-high-clearance vehicle. I'll just have to wait until the FS starts logging up that road in the next few years...hopefully my body will still be able to drag me up the gulch.

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Tom
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Tom
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PostSat May 14, 2022 6:03 pm 
If you choose to go
when the gulch is covered with snow
you'll not be subjected to paint
but yellow you may not escape

mosey, zimmertr, Cyclopath, Forestdancer  Anne Elk, Chief Joseph
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostSat May 14, 2022 6:11 pm 
Seattle is asking for volunteers to help remove graffiti on May 21st.

https://komonews.com/amp/news/local/seattle-looking-for-volunteers-to-help-with-citywide-cleanup-to-clear-graffiti-trash

The graffiti removal stuff I ordered will be here by then.  This seems like good practice.  Anyone else interested in volunteering?

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Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph
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PostSat May 14, 2022 6:24 pm 
I think we need to have a poll.

I am kind of the fence as to "Seekrit Places"...but there are many who hate when someone mentions them and I can't say that they are wrong. No point in encouraging more traffic in fragile areas. I won't tell you where my favorite fishing lakes are but I might take you there.

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Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.

dixon, Anne Elk, Forestdancer
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Backpacker Joe
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Backpacker Joe
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PostSat May 14, 2022 7:53 pm 
Chief Joseph wrote:
I think we need to have a poll.

I am kind of the fence as to "Seekrit Places"...but there are many who hate when someone mentions them and I can't say that they are wrong. No point in encouraging more traffic in fragile areas. I won't tell you where my favorite fishing lakes are but I might take you there.


There are a few places I wont post about but Ive taken a few people.  I ask them to think real hard before they take anyone there too.

--------------
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

ó Abraham Lincoln

Chief Joseph
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neek
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neek
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PostSat May 14, 2022 7:54 pm 
No opinion to add, just a proposal for discussing this topic.  One should differentiate between 1) making data available to those who are seeking it, and 2) calling attention to a place.  The map really makes no difference for #1 - to see why, just go to caltopo and enable "shared caltopo maps".  An argument to pull the map doesn't hold water.  For #2, probably everyone can agree we don't want certain spots featured on cable news, and that this preference doesn't count as gatekeeping.  Yet no one would object to me telling a good and trusted friend about it.  So it's a matter of where to draw the line.  Any argument requires one to quantify the impact.  That's pretty difficult, but for this thread my hunch is not much.  If it were posted on a prominent instagram account with pretty pictures, that's a different matter.  Will this thread lead to a few people adding it to their lists?  Yeah probably - the exact number is up for debate.  I'm even vaguely interested now, even though lakes are boring.

dixon, day_hike_mike, Anne Elk
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