Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > URGENT - PLEASE TAKE ACTION NOW TO SAVE ANWR!!!
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Scout
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PostThu Dec 01, 2005 7:28 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
i'm not sure why that would be, since people would be isolated from fuel price changes to a higher degree, and thus change their habits less. i would think that to actually reduce fuel usage, you need to reduce the miles driven, not insulate drivers from the cost of fuel even more. if'n i had a high mileage vehicle, i'd be even less concerned about extra trips!
How many extra trips do you take per year? I have three weeks vacation a year that I could possibly drive longer distances. Basically if fuel price is higher it may mean that I stay closer to home, but if I have a something important to do that is a few hundred miles away I'm gonna do it anyway. But that scenario would only arise maybe two or three times per year. Most of the driving people do is every day driving, to and from work, and during work. In fact, in my case I drive much farther for work sometimes than I'm willing to do on my own. If I could drive a Prius (say conservatively gets 50 mpg) for work versus an SUV (which say conservatively gets 18 mpg), then I would be consuming about %3 to %4 less gasoline per mile, not to mention the emissions reduction that would also occur. An extreme example I know, but I'm just trying to make a point - that we could make a big difference in how much oil we need to operate as a country.

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Scout
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PostThu Dec 01, 2005 7:46 pm 
Backpacker Joe wrote:
It is simply amazing to me how many people just don't get it. You cant decrease usage AND continue a growing economy! In fact you can only expect an increase in fuel usage in a growing economy. *politics removed by moderator* Growing economy and yes increased demand on natural resources.
It's simple, increased fuel efficiency would decrease fuel consumption per vehicle and thus decrease the overall burden on the worlds natural resources compared to doing nothing. Not to mention the gains we would see in lowering of the amount of greenhouse gases released and fumes in the air we breath.
Backpacker Joe wrote:
I recently read that if EVERY car sold right now was a hybrid, that we'd be back to our normal levels of fuel usage in less than four years. Because the demand increases!
Sounds better than what drilling in the ANWR would do to help us.
Backpacker Joe wrote:
If you want to live in poverty and be starving then go ahead with your less usage philosophy.
hmmm.gif you lost me on that one. I'm not talking about making great sacrifices, I'm talking about making a change to help us conserve what we have, before we start building roads through wildlife refuges.
Backpacker Joe wrote:
SOME DAY there will be real alternate forms of energy. Not in our life times. With current oil supplies there is no strict need for it. Remember, necessity is the mother of invention. It isn't necessary yet.
I disagree. I think it is a necessity now, especially if we are about to give away portions of our wildife refuges to oil companies. I think you understand that if drilling in ANWR happens, it will set a precedent that could carry over to other wildlife refuges.

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Newt
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PostFri Dec 02, 2005 7:18 am 
Backpacker Joe wrote:
It is simply amazing to me how many people just don't get it. You cant decrease usage AND continue a growing economy! In fact you can only expect an increase in fuel usage in a growing economy. *politics removed by moderator* Growing economy and yes increased demand on natural resources. I recently read that if EVERY car sold right now was a hybrid, that we'd be back to our normal levels of fuel usage in less than four years. Because the demand increases! If you want to live in poverty and be starving then go ahead with your less usage philosophy. SOME DAY there will be real alternate forms of energy. Not in our life times. With current oil supplies there is no strict need for it. Remember, necessity is the mother of invention. It isn't necessary yet.
So if every car sold now, assuming you mean from this point on, was a hybrid, what would be driven in 25-50 years? Would the consumption still be the same? And as the consumption grows as a result of a growing economy, what happens when we run out of oil? Also, I've always felt that when something becomes a point being a necessity especially on a large scale, It may be to late. JMO. Should we start saving wilderness and such when it becomes a necessity? Ford and GM come to mind as examples of what can happen when you wait for things to be a necessity. Nothing wrong with thinking and planning ahead. You planning for retirement or waiting until it's necessary? And just how many years worth of crude does the world really have considering the rate the world is using it? Really. And why not in our lifetime? Why the hell leave our mess for our grandkids to deal with? Hell Joe, We're the most respected?, intelligent?, powerful and wealthiest country in the world. We can do better that we're doing and be the leaders that we think we are in areas other than democracy. My impression is that when large scale money is involved, it's not always for the best of all. It has a smell and tint of greed to it. JMO

It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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Slugman
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PostFri Dec 02, 2005 9:47 am 
The oil companies themselves admit that the oil from the ANWR would be sold to China anyway, helping us not at all. We should save that oil for when we need it more than we do today. After the rest of the north slope is pumped dry, we can rehabilitate that land, and then the ANWR will be less critical habitat. I don't see what the rush is to use up everything right now, as if the oil is going somewhere. It's safe enough just sitting there underground.

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PostFri Dec 02, 2005 10:37 am 
lowering the market price helps everyone. the oil market is a world commodities market, it doesn't matter where the oil goes. yes, it's in the ground in the US, but that's it. the world market price will influence the US price even if it was sold within US borders, because all that means is some lot of oil elsewhere didn't get sold here and gets sold to someone else. the US price would reflect the world price, and the world price is set by the interface of production and demand. and no tiddlywinks with who actually get's "our" oil will make any difference.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Slugman
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PostFri Dec 02, 2005 9:53 pm 
Mtn Goat, your arguments about increasing the gas mileage of cars being useless hold no water at all. Here's why you must be wrong: When gas prices went way up recently, demand did not decrease appreciably. People kept driving the same amount and just paid the higher prices. So lowering the price, or raising the gas mileage of cars, will NOT cause people to just drive more and negate the benefit. People will drive the same amount but simply have lower gasoline bills overall. Recent history (the last year or so) is proof of that. And even if you were right, it still shoots down your overall theory that there will be a benefit from drilling in the ANWR. Because according to you, any increase in supply or decrease in price will simply be "driven off" by increased driving by motorists, or wasted via the purchase of less-efficient cars. So your argument loses either way. I also question the theory that any oil China buys from the ANWR will be completely offset by less oil purchased elsewhere by them, freeing up more oil for us. As the Chinese economy expands, they will buy up all the oil they can get. So they will buy the ANWR oil, plus the oil they are buying now, leaving us with no extra oil. Also, you do not address the FACT that using it up now means it will be gone later when we may well need it more than we do now. Even if alternative energy sources replace the need for gasoline and heating oil and diesel fuel, we will still need oil for plastic production. So it still makes no sense whatsoever to deplete this precious resource sooner than we have to. Drilling in the ANWR will accomplish nothing except to retard the inevitable demise of the SUV mentality of Americans. Our generation will simply be viewed by future generations as too stupid and greedy to be believed.

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lookout bob
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PostWed Dec 21, 2005 3:40 pm 
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20051221/D8EKSUSG4.html the latest.....

"Altitude is its own reward" John Jerome ( from "On Mountains")
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Allison
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PostWed Dec 21, 2005 6:23 pm 
up.gif

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Newt
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PostWed Dec 21, 2005 7:48 pm 
It's always bothered me about how some attach other bills, or at the last minute, onto a must pass one. But hey, I guess that's politics. Glad it didn't pass.

It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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