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polarbear
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polarbear
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PostWed Mar 05, 2003 11:36 pm 
National Pass?
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"We think this is going to be responsive to what we are hearing from people. They want simplicity. They want convenience. And they want value," said Teri Cleeland, who oversees the recreation fee demonstration program for the Forest Service.
How did that camel get into my tent?

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Sore Feet
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 1:22 am 
Well, I usually get a annual NPS pass anyway, so IF this thing is enacted, I would probably b!tch a little less. Then again, the article said the money from the Fee Demo makes up about 10% of the Forest Service's budget, 10% of which is probably keeping the Fee Demo program alive... shakehead.gif Hell, just stop subsidizing the logging companies and suddenly there will be more green than they know what to do with (paper and trees).

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Timber Cruiser
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 11:29 am 
Sore Feet wrote:
Hell, just stop subsidizing the logging companies and suddenly there will be more green than they know what to do with (paper and trees).
Explain to me how the Forest Service is subsidizing logging companies. This is a claim I see so often, but never backed by facts. Are you just parroting comments made by others or do you have some knowledgeable basis for this claim?

"Logging encourages the maintenance of foilage by providing economic alternatives to development."
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Backpacker Joe
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 1:44 pm 
The forest service builds the road that the logging companies then use to well, log! TB

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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MooseAndSquirrel
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 2:25 pm 
Wasn't the Forest Service created to manage the nation's timber resources- the notion which has gotten lost over the years? That was Job #1. They also built roads and trails, in the most part, to access that timber. Secondarily, campgrounds and visitor amenities were created for the public. Not to be overlooked, the government through its CCC, WPA, etc. programs during the Depression built large amounts of trails, campgrounds, and assorted other outdoor amenities-- and many of those trails have been either abandoned or closed entirely since then due to budgetary or political decisions. So the romantic vision of forest rangers, Smokey the Bear and Jellystone Park isn't exactly based on the true facts. Forest fires were fought to save timber, a commodity, not to save for the public beautiful vistas of green trees. Obviously sentiments have changed since the USFS's start, and society wants a different approach to what was their initial mission- from forest managers to stewards. But many people are still unsure what is the Forest Service's job.

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Timber Cruiser
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 2:28 pm 
Backpacker Joe wrote:
The forest service builds the road that the logging companies then use to well, log! TB
What value would the timber have if there wasn't a road to bring it to market?

"Logging encourages the maintenance of foilage by providing economic alternatives to development."
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Steve
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 4:38 pm 
I think the point is that those who want the logs should pay for the roads and pay the owners of the trees to harvest them. I am not anti logging at all, after all I have about 40 species of lumber in my garage, but why should I pay so someone else can make a profit. It's like investing in a company and never get a return on investment.

Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.
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Timber Cruiser
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 6:11 pm 
Steve wrote:
I think the point is that those who want the logs should pay for the roads and pay the owners of the trees to harvest them.
Forest Service timber is sold at auction to the highest bidder. With a sufficent pool of bidders, the timber should fetch the highest current market value. The market value of the timber (trees) = Gross product$-logging cost Imbeded in the logging cost is road construction, cutting, yard&load, haul, taxes and some level of profit and loss. That's what it takes to get the timber to market. This is econ 101. Are you saying the timber buyer should pay more than the market value (lose money) for the privilege of logging FS timber? No one is going to stay in business for long doing that!

"Logging encourages the maintenance of foilage by providing economic alternatives to development."
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polarbear
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 9:50 pm 
I just want to be able to go hiking unencumbered by red tape. I believe my elected officials have alot more resourcefulness than they are domonstrating.

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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Mar 06, 2003 11:11 pm 
The presemt administration is interested in satisfying their suporters who ane NOT seen as hikers. They will maximize harvests as much as possible. Forest passes are seen as a way of keeping busybodies out of the way.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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polarbear
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PostSat Mar 08, 2003 2:37 pm 
I like what this article has to say about it.

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Dante
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PostSat Mar 08, 2003 5:46 pm 
Here are some interesting links
Here are some interesting links I found by Googling ARC and "national pass" http://www.wildwilderness.org These guys have some interesting things to say about the pass and its backers. http://www.wildwilderness.org/docs/peterson.htm <- This is really interesting . . . http://www.wildwilderness.org/docs/feb4.htm

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