[Allison]

Um, to pay for the gravel in the parking lot, the grading on the road, the cleaning of the toilets, and the maintaining of the trail?

[obxcola]

This has been a fascinating discussion. I am just this past 5 minutes a "newbie" to this board, and came here frankly trolling for info ( though not about secret spots, just trying to avoid wasting a cross country trip by making poor choices). I certainly won't presume to preach to y'all about your regional turf. I would like to share what I understand about the same basic issue in the extremely pressure sensitive 4 corners region of the Southwest. Not only is this high desert region very vulnerable to damage from the slightest human impact, it is also stuffed with equally vulnerable and quite un-protected ancient puebloan archeological/cultural sites scattered about the backcountry. The only thing saving most of this stuff is that the country is remote (sorta/relatively) very difficult (positively), and the sites (though there's lots of em) are relatively difficult to locate without lots of practice and experience in where and how to look. I used to think the local attitude in this region was unbelievably prissy, stuck-up and obnoxious ( kinda like new moms with the first-born prince or princess) ( and I gotta tell you I will never practice "smearing") but after awhile I came to understand the process at work. The "rule" is this: Don't Ask, Don't Tell What I've come to understand it means is this. The people who are really interested will figure it out, and along the way they will come to understand the threat THEY pose, and therefore be all the more responsible and respectful about the experiences they are fortunate to have. Though I must also sadly add that 750 year old "secret" sites visited just 5 or 6 years ago that were littered with relics and pot-sherds, etc. have begun to show serious degradation in that brief a period, and more limited and controlled access is probably coming.

[hikermike]

Good advice and it's actually "so true".

[hikermike]

By the way, what trip were you thinking of, there are those here who could help you!

[MtnGoat]

[polarbear]

[Bob K]

flash in the pan? i've been surprised at how *uncrowded* it has been this year on the weekends. maybe it's the economy? or everyone's knees are getting too old? or is it because the mariners don't totally suck anymore? don't know what it is, but i'm not complaining.

[#19]

[troutman]

It seems like people who are skilled enough to find a new bivy location in a prestine area is also likely to make the bivy spot established so other campers know to use the one available rather than try and make a new one. Chances are, it will have a flat spot for a small tent or bivy sacks and a trail to the water. If the original party decided to have a fire, they established a ring for other people to use. Granted, over time the ring will evolve or relocate which can have a large impact on the area but if the original party establishes everything properly from the beginning, there is a better chance for the area to remain prestine. It is up to us to decide if the camping area is suitable for our needs. Maybe the bivy site needs excavating because a party thought the flat spot was too rocky and not wind protected enough. Maybe the fire ring is too small for a white man fire. I don't see a problem with establishing new campsites if the impact is minimal in the beginning. As it becomes more accessable and more used it will impact the surrounding areas but that is inevitable(sp?)

[MtnGoat]

[#19]

[Tom]

[Backpacker Joe]

I dont know, I've been as guilty of confrontation on this site as anyone. This topic is dear to many hearts, including mine. I cant help but feel that most people here will take/exercise some care while in the back country. I will not not go someplace because of someone's perception of frailty, or fear of impact. I'm careful and respectful everywhere I go. Ultimately it's my responsibility to take proper care. I do, I hope most will too. TB

[polarbear]

This thread about sums it up. It is time to ban registered posters It will be hard to agree on secret places, but I think we all cringe when a favorite place gets blasted over the tv or when a large resort goes into a gateway to an area we like. However, I was up at Ingalls Lake today and was surprised by the lack of people for a sunny Saturday in early September Maybe the kind of people that see something on tv are likely to just stay plugged in front of the tv?

[Bushwacker]