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Layback
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Layback
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 8:42 am 
Dave Workman wrote:
This couple are, from my understanding, from Massachusetts. Last time I looked, they don't have mountains like we have back there on the flatlands.
That's a common misconception of folks around here. Although peaks in New England lack the elevation that the peaks around here possess it doesn't mean that they aren't as harsh (or perhaps more harsh for that matter). I have been on top of Mt. Washington in conditions that would make the most seasoned climbers of the Cascades uneasy. -20 degrees F with 80 mph gusts will give you whole new perspective on climbing in New England. That's just one example. I have more. It's been my experience that a lot of climbers in the Cascades have an unwarranted elitist attitude just because the peaks are larger in size. I'm not accusing you of that Dave. Generally speaking that's my observation of people in a certain club to which I belong and the greater climbing community in general. A good majority of my climbing friends in New England would smoke these people in their own range.

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plain old dan
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:05 am 
I grew up in New Hampshire and love the White Mountains to death but there are many significant differences between what this couple was doing and what's available to do in New England. First, obviously there is no glaciated terrain. Second, there is little opportunity to travel cross country off trail (in fact it's greatly frowned upon - after all, trails go most places you would want to explore in the high country). While it's true, winter hiking and camping in the Presidential Range can be awesome and a completely different challenge. Not to mention the trails which go straight up and can produce very strong hikers - that experience doesn't translate into competence on a trip such as the Ptarmigan Traverse. Just saying... who knows what the experience level of this couple was but I climbed all the 4000 footers in New England and many in upstate New York yet had much to learn to be competent in the Northwest. As far as sport climbing, I'm sure Layback has a point up.gif

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Guiran
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:06 am 
The situation that Trent describes over on CascadeClimbers is the sort of thing that I think nearly any climber or hiker could get themselves into. Just a bunch of bad luck. They certainly don't deserve to be "billed" for rescue and I'm very thankful to all the SAR volunteers for seeing this through to a happy ending. The route from White Rock Lake to Cub Lake is straightforward in clear conditions, but in a white-out everything changes. In my experience, trying to hit a particular gap or col on a ridge with several gaps is very difficult. Navigating on something like the Muir snowfield is one thing, but trying to hit a narrow corridor using a compass in a whiteout is something I certainly wouldn't want to try to do. Yes, in white out conditions they could have just hunkered down at White Rock lake and waited for the weather to improve, but who around here hasn't broken down camp and started moving in less than optimal conditions? I'm glad they're both safe, that they probably learned some valuable lessons from this, and this doesn't discourage them from trying a trip like this again in the future.

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Schroder
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:09 am 
Dave Workman wrote:
They went out in nominal weather, got turned around (either of them have a compass? How about a Green Trails map?) and ended up on this ledge everyone is talking about. It could have been worse. It shouldn't have been anything at all. Keep that in perspective.
These were climbers doing the Ptarmigan Traverse - a group of peaks from Cascade Pass to the Suiattle River, traditionally exiting Bachelor and Downey Creeks from Spire Point and Dome Peak. They were not far off route and the situation is understandable in whiteout conditions up there. Even a GPS can't guide you through very steep terrain when the correct route might be only a few feet away. Their only mistakes were not stopping and digging in earlier and then also getting separated from some of their gear. They may have had weather move in on them quite suddenly at that elevation.

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kleet
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kleet
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:09 am 
Layback wrote:
I have been on top of Mt. Washington in conditions that would make the most seasoned climbers of the Cascades uneasy.
Skeery! hairy.gif

A fuxk, why do I not give one?
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DIYSteve
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:10 am 
tenaya123 wrote:
"Spire Point update: The two “hikers” were completing the Ptarmigan Traverse from White Rock Lakes to Cub Lake in a white-out. They ascended to what they though was Spire Col, and descended toward what they thought was Itswoot Ridge.
Makes sense. It's complex terrain there, and finding the right col could be tricky in a white out (although pre-trip plotting GPS waypoints would substantially reduce the probability of getting off route there). Many PNWers could have gotten off route there in bad conditions. Dropping the pack -- I don't get that part.

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Eric
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:15 am 
Quote:
This couple are, from my understanding, from Massachusetts. Last time I looked, they don't have mountains like we have back there on the flatlands.
As a former "flatland" area resident I will agree with Layback on Dave's erroneous statements about New England mtns. They lack the elevation, glaciation and are not as pervasively nasty as the Cascades. But there is plenty of wild lands out there which is deep and steep in that part of the country. Anyone who has tooled around parts of Maine, the Whites, Adirondacks, Gunks etc knows this. Now WI would be closer to the stereotype you are throwing out there of flatlands. But even if they were from some place truly flat, it's a big assumption to equate residency with incompetency.
Quote:
They went out in nominal weather,
It's the Ptraverse which is known for nasty weather. This is not a day trip, you can't predict the weather days out on such a trip. There is no good time to do it when you can be guaranteed good weather for days on end. They did it in August, perfectly reasonable.
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(either of them have a compass?
Do you know they didn't? I'll bet you a shiny penny that they did.
Quote:
How about a Green Trails map?
Hopefully not. Sorry but that is just a silly suggestion on your part for this trip. Green Trails are great-- for trails and roads and such. For serious off trail the small scale and 80 foot contours are not gonna cut it. They would have needed the real topos. I have a hard time believing they made it from Cascade Pass to Spire Point w/o a map but I'm open to evidence to the contrary.
Quote:
They weren't prepared mentally for this effort,
Maybe. What is your basis for saying that? So far you have only speculated on what they lacked, compass, map and skills without providing any substantiation. You might be right, might not, but it is just guessing on your part so far.
Quote:
They lost their gear (I'm still scratching my head over that one)
We'll see if more info is available but it seems their packs took a tumble off steep terrain and they could not retrieve it. This is not the first time someone has lost a pack over a cliff, in some types of terrain it is really not that hard to see how this could happen. Having said that, you cannot cannot cannot lose your pack. Just can't let it happen. So this is clearly the big mistake they made.
Quote:
and wound up with nothing but a cell phone.
Every news account I've read says they still had one sleeping bag and part of tent so more than just a cell phone. I would speculate that each person was carrying their bag and they split the tent and rainfly. Then one pack was lost, carrying one sleeping bag and either the tent or the fly while they still had the other pack with the other bag and either the tent or fly. But I don't know. Anyway, until more evidence comes in I'm not ready to condemn them harshly. This is not like say the James Kim thing where they managed to get in big trouble through sheer stupidity on their part and while driving a freaking forest road. This is a serious week long off-trail trip in North Cascades which is the type of place where even competent folks can have bad things happen to them. The whole You're-Not-From-Around-Here thing is pretty tired.

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Layback
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Layback
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:16 am 
plain old dan wrote:
Second, there is little opportunity to travel cross country off trail (in fact it's greatly frowned upon - after all, trails go most places you would want to explore in the high country). While it's true, winter hiking and camping in the Presidential Range can be awesome and a completely different challenge.
Not true. There are several peaks in the ADK 46 that are off-trail only. Moreover, what about ice and rock climbs in Huntington Ravine? Prior to coming out here in 2001 that was my training ground. My first glacier climb was the Adams Glacier on Mt. Adams. If one knows the fundamentals of rock and ice climbing, crevasse rescue is a cinch.
plain old dan wrote:
Just saying... who knows what the experience level of this couple was but I climbed all the 4000 footers in New England and many in upstate New York yet had much to learn to be competent in the Northwest. As far as sport climbing, I'm sure Layback has a point up.gif
Sport climbing? The only sport climbing area that I know of in New England is Rumney. Pretty much everything else is hard old-school trad. Not that I am a bolt chopper (I don't care to get involved in bolt wars), but where I grew up bolts aren't for clipping they are for chopping. Although we've both spent lots of time on NE summits I think that you and I might have different backgrounds Dan (and I don't mean that as an insult and I don't mean that I'm somehow better than you). I don't know what the skill set of these people is but I don't think it's fair to say they were unprepared because of where they reside. I wonder how many folks know that the pioneer of the Gunks, Fritz Weissner, nearly made the first ascent of K2? He would have in fact been successful had his Sherpa companion not inisted that they turnaround 700 ft below the summit. (His plan was to climb through the night). His name also graces routes all over the Northwest.

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Layback
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Layback
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 9:22 am 
kleet wrote:
Layback wrote:
I have been on top of Mt. Washington in conditions that would make the most seasoned climbers of the Cascades uneasy.
Skeery! hairy.gif
Thanks for proving my point. What you lack in climbing ability you make up for with total close-mindedness. up.gif

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joker
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 10:02 am 
Geez - figures that someone would start in on the "outsider bashing." Lame. +1 to Layback's, Schroder's, BigSteve's and Snowbrushy's comments, especially regarging the giant leaps Dave took. Kleet - here's a shot from near that auto road (and don't forget the Cog Railway) when the road and railway are not open:

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pimaCanyon
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 10:06 am 
joker wrote:
Geez - figures that someone would start in on the "outsider bashing." Lame. +1 to Layback's, Schroder's, BigSteve's and Snowbrushy's comments, especially regarging the giant leaps Dave took
I will second that. Dave Workman's comments are especially surprising and distrubing considering he was the one in the Sauk Mountain thread who kept telling people to not make assumptions about what happened. Seems that Dave's comments above are rife with assumptions and just plain incorrect information.

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Blue Dome
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 10:18 am 
Guiran wrote:
The situation that Trent describes over on CascadeClimbers is the sort of thing that I think nearly any climber or hiker could get themselves into. Just a bunch of bad luck. They certainly don't deserve to be "billed" for rescue and I'm very thankful to all the SAR volunteers for seeing this through to a happy ending... I'm glad they're both safe, that they probably learned some valuable lessons from this, and this doesn't discourage them from trying a trip like this again in the future.
Well said -- bad luck with a happy ending due to the hard work of SAR. Nobody in this case deserves to be billed. rolleyes.gif As to Layback and joker's point: Mt. Washington is, of course, a well-known winter mountaineering, ice climbing, alpine climbing, and skiing destination:
Quote:
Mount Washington is the highest peak east of the Mississippi River, north of North Carolina, and south of Ellesmere Island in North America. It is also one of most popular hiking, backcountry skiing, alpine climbing and ice climbing destinations in New England...
http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/150248/mount-washington.html

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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ActionBetty
Im a dirty hippie!



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ActionBetty
Im a dirty hippie!
PostSat Aug 30, 2008 10:25 am 
An edited version of the previous image in my... (ready for this....?) STREAM heh heh
An edited version of the previous image in my... (ready for this....?) STREAM heh heh

"If you're not living good, you gotta travel wide"...Bob Marley
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Dave Workman
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 10:39 am 
See, I got all of you thinking. What's to assume? They got into a bad spot, in unfamiliar terrain and damn near died for it. This isn't the same thing as getting negligently shot by someone who thought you looked like a bear. Poor Mrs. Almli had no control over that one, or at least very little control, if one takes the tack that she knew there was a bear hunting season in progress and she didn't wear a really bright color to differentiate her profile from that of a bruin, but that's already been debated and I guarantee it will be debated more. Yes, there are mountains in New England, and from what I understand, they can get pretty treacherous in bad weather. Weather patterns here differ. Did they have an escape route, that is, a plan of retreat? Even animals have an escape route, sometimes more than one. And don't misunderstand...the fact that this couple wasn't "from around here" is not a crime. It simply means they went into unfamiliar territory and got in over their heads. But as I said, this incident provides an opportunity to learn something. You can waste your time sneering at me, or you can analyze what happened and discuss it, and hopefully come away with some scrap of knowledge that might prevent a similar incident, or at the very least, help keep you from getting into a scrape like this.

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
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Blue Dome
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PostSat Aug 30, 2008 10:40 am 
Dave Workman wrote:
...This isn't the same thing as getting negligently shot by someone who thought you looked like a bear... bear hunting... bright color...
Surprise, here we go.

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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