Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > BLM vs. Nevada Rancher, Armed Militias, and Assorted Crazies
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 8:57 am 
pnw.hiker wrote:
The federal government in this case is untouchable, despite the fact that the Hages have won every case going back almost thirty years, even though at times they couldn't afford a lawyer. The government just keeps appealing and doing whatever the hell they want.
That is factually incorrect, the Feds won in the Federal Circuit and the Supreme Court denied cert. The case is dead the Feds won.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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NacMacFeegle
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 9:22 am 
Daryl wrote:
If anyone has seen this land, you'd know it's not pretty or really worth protecting as other than grazing or racing ATV's it's pretty much useless. there are countless miles of land just like this across the southwest. It's flat scrub land and letting the cows graze actually does a pretty good service as it greatly reduces the wildfire risks. in AZ property owners would pay ranchers to bring in herds to clear the land to reduce fire risks.
Just because you consider it ugly does not mean that others consider it so, nor is beauty the most important aspect of any tract of land.
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Just where is that brown lake? That churned up delicate alpine meadow? One note from what I've seen. Our Warshington cows seem fat and happy out in the woods. I was surprised to see the cows in Northern AZ that were out grazing on allotments were skinny in comparison.
It is lakes, not a single lake, and most of the ranching damage I've seen has been in Idaho (I wasn't aware that grazing still occurred on public lands in Washington, perhaps on the Eastern side of the state?). The damage cattle and other livestock wreak on riparian areas is severe, and it can take many years to recover from the damage. The ranchers themselves are often responsible for some of the worst of the devastation; cutting live trees for firewood, digging deep ditches around tent sites and camping in one spot with their herds for so long as to totally devastate the local ecosystem.

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DIYSteve
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 9:57 am 
Daryl wrote:
his family has been grazing that land forever
not true
Daryl wrote:
his family . . . owns the grazing rights.
not true Truth: Bundy has willfully violated court orders for years. In other words, Bundy has been in contempt of court for years. Truth: Those court orders issued after fair adjudications and full due process. Truth: As part of his defense, Bundy used lofty rhetoric about "sovereignty" and "liberty" and "tyranny" as a cynical façade for illegally padding his own bank account on the backs of taxpayers. Message to the rightwingers: Bundy is a whackjob profiteer. Find another hero.

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jinx'sboy
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 10:07 am 
pnw.hiker wrote:
Unfortunately the main stream media hasn't reported the story and certainly not the background, focusing instead assorted nuts.
Also wrong. Hage was covered in the popular press and the environmental media extensively....through the years and all his losses in court. As have many other similar cases. Here's how the story works: Rancher x, who and revocable, renewable permit (not a right or lease) does something wrong; refuses to pay fees, grazes too many cows, refuses to comply with or obtain a permit, etc etc. After many years and many chances to make it right, quit being a jerk and play by the rules everyone else plays by, the Feds get tired of screwing around and giving Rancher X umpteen chances, and they come down on him - sometimes hard. Then, all the whack jobs come out of the woodwork. Words like 'constitutional rights', 'jack-booted thugs', 'turtles are more important than people' get used and everyone gets misty-eyed talking about "the demise of a way of life". Balls. The Rancher could've been straight from the get go - if he had he'd still be grazing cattle. The land he's never was his, it has always been public. It ain't 1894 anymore - get over it.

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RayD
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 10:50 am 
That pretty much sums it up. up.gif The Feds should put a lien on the property, confiscate and sell any cattle on BLM land. Rinse and repeat.

don't believe everything you think
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l'Emmerdeur
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 10:55 am 
jinx'sboy wrote:
Here's how the story works: Rancher x, who and revocable, renewable permit (not a right or lease) does something wrong; refuses to pay fees, grazes too many cows, refuses to comply with or obtain a permit, etc etc. After many years and many chances to make it right, quit being a jerk and play by the rules everyone else plays by, the Feds get tired of screwing around and giving Rancher X umpteen chances, and they come down on him - sometimes hard. Then, all the whack jobs come out of the woodwork. Words like 'constitutional rights', 'jack-booted thugs', 'turtles are more important than people' get used and everyone gets misty-eyed talking about "the demise of a way of life". Balls. The Rancher could've been straight from the get go - if he had he'd still be grazing cattle. The land he's never was his, it has always been public. It ain't 1894 anymore - get over it.
up.gif Pretty much sums it up.
BigSteve wrote:
Message to the rightwingers: Bundy is a whackjob profiteer. Find another hero.
That's just the problem, he's their IDEAL hero. What is most distressing is that while all of this brain-addled nincompoopery is unfolding (fanned by media hyperbole from all sides), the American public is being further desensitized to the actual, ongoing erosion of their civil and constitutional rights. The face of this awareness is not their own; rather it is that of a bunch of ignorant buffoons-- spoiling for another Waco, and for equally specious reasons. The mandarins and panjandrums in DC couldn't ask for a better distraction from business as usual. kissass.gif horsey.gif chickenleg.gif fencing.gif flammable.gif

SEMPER IMPROVISIO -or- You can't always get what you want, but if you try some times you just might find that you learn how to Deal...
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pnw.hiker
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 11:02 am 
jinx'sboy wrote:
pnw.hiker wrote:
Unfortunately the main stream media hasn't reported the story and certainly not the background, focusing instead assorted nuts.
Also wrong. Hage was covered in the popular press and the environmental media extensively....through the years and all his losses in court. As have many other similar cases. Here's how the story works: Rancher x, who and revocable, renewable permit (not a right or lease) does something wrong; refuses to pay fees, grazes too many cows, refuses to comply with or obtain a permit, etc etc. After many years and many chances to make it right, quit being a jerk and play by the rules everyone else plays by, the Feds get tired of screwing around and giving Rancher X umpteen chances, and they come down on him - sometimes hard. Then, all the whack jobs come out of the woodwork. Words like 'constitutional rights', 'jack-booted thugs', 'turtles are more important than people' get used and everyone gets misty-eyed talking about "the demise of a way of life". Balls. The Rancher could've been straight from the get go - if he had he'd still be grazing cattle. The land he's never was his, it has always been public. It ain't 1894 anymore - get over it.
I'm sure that's true in some cases, but it doesn't legitimize the government's behavior; In Hage's case they tried to illegally confiscate his property on private land without a warrant, they engaged in criminal conspiracy (according to one judge) to harass him, his family and other businesses he worked with, and to separate him from his vested water rights. Just last week the feds destroyed some of Bundy's private property on his land which their warrant didn't allow for. And they've gotten away with this criminal abuse for decades, with little accountability. An occasional nut doesn't justify this behavior, instead it explains the support that even a nut like Bundy is getting. And it's beginning to find resonance with local officials and even the governor. jinx'sboy, what you describe is exactly what a BLM official described in a small meeting he didn't realize was being tapped. He lost his job, but that's the exception to the rule. The feds engage in heavy handed abuse that they know is wrong. The guy got fired for being honest, while feds continue misbehaving. It's easy to rationalize the fed's heavy handed, illegal behavior for the occasional nutcase, but once they get away with it, it becomes standard operating procedure. No agency deserves to act outside the law abusively, and with no accountability. Do you really think the BLM gives a rats ass about taxpayer dollars being spent for 30 years of vindictive litigating? The thing is, these small ranchers don't have the political capitol of environmentalists or big business. The feds can wipe out a lifetime of their work, vindictively even, with no accountability.

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jinx'sboy
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 11:39 am 
pnw.hiker wrote:
jinx'sboy, what you describe is exactly what a BLM official described in a small meeting he didn't realize was being tapped. He lost his job, but that's the exception to the rule. The feds engage in heavy handed abuse that they know is wrong. The guy got fired for being honest, while feds continue misbehaving. It's easy to rationalize the fed's heavy handed, illegal behavior for the occasional nutcase, but once they get away with it, it becomes standard operating procedure. No agency deserves to act outside the law abusively, and with no accountability. Do you really think the BLM gives a rats ass about taxpayer dollars being spent for 30 years of vindictive litigating? The thing is, these small ranchers don't have the political capitol of environmentalists or big business. The feds can wipe out a lifetime of their work, vindictively even, with no accountability.
Oh - of course you are right......silly me. We SHOULD just let a few rule breakers get by with this stuff. And NOT expect the agencies to enforce the rules on OUR land because some welfare rancher might get his knickers in a twist. No accountability? Do you have any idea how many judicial and legislative reviews of FS or BLM and NPS activities there are? How much debate about agency actions during budget battles? It is constant and substantial. Add in the daily media scrutiny and similar following in hundreds of on-line forums like this one. You can't be serious...

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pnw.hiker
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 11:53 am 
jinx'sboy wrote:
pnw.hiker wrote:
jinx'sboy, what you describe is exactly what a BLM official described in a small meeting he didn't realize was being tapped. He lost his job, but that's the exception to the rule. The feds engage in heavy handed abuse that they know is wrong. The guy got fired for being honest, while feds continue misbehaving. It's easy to rationalize the fed's heavy handed, illegal behavior for the occasional nutcase, but once they get away with it, it becomes standard operating procedure. No agency deserves to act outside the law abusively, and with no accountability. Do you really think the BLM gives a rats ass about taxpayer dollars being spent for 30 years of vindictive litigating? The thing is, these small ranchers don't have the political capitol of environmentalists or big business. The feds can wipe out a lifetime of their work, vindictively even, with no accountability.
Oh - of course you are right......silly me. We SHOULD just let a few rule breakers get by with this stuff. And NOT expect the agencies to enforce the rules on OUR land because some welfare rancher might get his knickers in a twist.
I didn't say that. Considering the vindictive, abusive behavior in the Hage's case, the Feds seem to act like it's their agency's land and not the public's land.
jinx'sboy wrote:
No accountability? Do you have any idea how many judicial and legislative reviews of FS or BLM and NPS activities there are? How much debate about agency actions during budget battles? It is constant and substantial. Add in the daily media scrutiny and similar following in hundreds of on-line forums like this one.
do you work for one of these government agencies?
jinx'sboy wrote:
You can't be serious...
Heh, since you put words into my mouth that I didn't say, I can't really take you seriously, can I?

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RumiDude
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 12:28 pm 
There are times when the various government levels can be abusive and genuinely violate both the letter and spirit of the law. This Bundy ranch case is not one of them. Neither is the Hage ranch case. Both of these are cases of individuals basically making their own interpretation of the laws and basing their behavior on such private interpretation. The courts have overwhelmingly rejected their arguments and yet they persist. What really disgusts me is their appeal to patriotic sentiments, acting as if they are the last remaining true Americans standing for American values. Instead they represent one of the worst episodes of our American legacy, namely manifest destiny movement. As BigSteve suggests, these people and their supporters are no heroes. They should be treated like the lawbreakers they are. Rumi

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Ski
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 12:39 pm 
so... did they bring out their own Gadsden flags for the news cameras down there?

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cairn builder
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 1:09 pm 
Daryl wrote:
Wow, the trolls are out in full force!
Someone replaced your computer screen with a mirror?

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pnw.hiker
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 1:45 pm 
RumiDude wrote:
There are times when the various government levels can be abusive and genuinely violate both the letter and spirit of the law. This Bundy ranch case is not one of them. Neither is the Hage ranch case. Both of these are cases of individuals basically making their own interpretation of the laws and basing their behavior on such private interpretation. The courts have overwhelmingly rejected their arguments and yet they persist.
I wouldn't group Bundy and Hage together. Also, the courts didn't "overwhelmingly rejected [Hage's] arguments", quite the opposite. It's the government filing appeals for decades, with the knowledge there was a friendly court with well known political leanings in the end.
RumiDude wrote:
What really disgusts me is their appeal to patriotic sentiments, acting as if they are the last remaining true Americans standing for American values. Instead they represent one of the worst episodes of our American legacy, namely manifest destiny movement.
I feel the same way. However, is it so difficult to understand where this sentiment comes from when government agencies act in an extrajudicial manner, getting away with vindictive, abusive, illegal and conspiratorial behavior, with no consequences?
RumiDude wrote:
As BigSteve suggests, these people and their supporters are no heroes. They should be treated like the lawbreakers they are. Rumi
Again, you are painting this issue with a broad brush. Just because there is one rancher that's nut's, doesn't mean they all are, nor does it legitimize abusive and extrajudicial behavior of government agencies. Wayne Hage's testimony to Congress is worth reading; http://democrats.naturalresources.house.gov/sites/democrats.naturalresources.house.gov/files/HageJrTestimony10-29-13.pdf

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DIYSteve
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 2:31 pm 
RayD wrote:
The Feds should put a lien on the property
Wait, why would the feds put a lien on fed property? dizzy.gif

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Backpacker Joe
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PostThu Apr 17, 2014 2:33 pm 
Steve's being a wise guy. He cant help it. He knows Raymond was talking abount a lein on his OWN property to cover said debt. Hell, why not just ruby ridge their asses? moon.gif

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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