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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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The USFS does not arrange the rocks at Gamma. If an elaborate hot springs development were built at Gamma or Kennedy, the USFS would probably be bound to dismantle it. A newly developed hot springs does not meet wilderness character or meet minimum tools for minimum maintenance of the land.
Re: horse springs and pipes - I would think that so long as they use the "minimum tools" analysis that would be OK. If it doesn't fit within "minimum tools," then probably not.
Wilderness does not mean "pristine." But so long as the wilderness character of the area is considered appropriately and the minimum tools analysis is done properly, then they can do what they want.
Each case is different, but the minimum tools analysis and wilderness character are always there.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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 Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:28 pm |
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| Kim Brown wrote: | | There are no springs to maintain. The hot springs tub was developed by humans before the wilderness act. They were inherited and were maintained. Now that the developed hole has been wiped out, the place is natural, and the USFS will not dig a hole and build platforms for soaking. The Wilderness Act discusses the "wilderness character" of the land within designated wilderness, and subsequent policies/law have further defined "wilderness character."
It is so doubtful that the development of a soaking pool would pass the “wilderness character” test that the USFS wouldn’t even attempt it. Land managers are sued on a regular basis by people claiming historical development or structures have no place in wilderness, they’d be absolutely insane to develop something new.
Even if they were insane enough to try, it would not pass the environmental review sniff-test. |
Everything you say is true Kim -- however given the remoteness of Gamma Hot Springs -- it seems a bit far fetched to think that the FS would undertake any sort of "deconstruction" project from hiker "improvements" -- unless they were compelled to do so by a lawsuit from Wilderness Watch or other organization. I think if the "improvements" were limited to "stacking up rocks" -- I think the remoteness and periodic flooding of the creek will keep things in check.
In case of Kennedy -- I think the "attractive nuisance" aspect of hot springs is a factor in the USFS having no plans to rebuild the trail, et al.
Baker Hot springs (which is outside any wilderness area) used to have a very nice wood lined pool with benches during the '70s. But it was dismantled and filled in because it had become a ridiculously popular party site that was a headache for the Baker Lake rangers.
My memories of Kennedy are that is was lukewarm and red silty -- to me it hardly seems worth the effort to rebuild the pool -- even if it was allowed and far enough from any trailhead to keep out the "party hardy" crowd.
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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Sure; it's doubtful they would have the time to go to a place like Gamma to dismantle anything that's developed unless they're compelled to do so. But someone asked about Gamma, and it is true that if the USFS had to dismantle it, they would have to find the time to do so. If not, they probably won't.
If high water keeps it in check, then there probably won't be any compelling argument to get the USFS out there if someone were to try to compel them to. The term "developed" can mean a lot of things. Whether stacking rocks at Gamma is considered developed - I don't know. I used that word because the term is relative.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
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Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
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Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:02 pm |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | Baker Hot springs (which is outside any wilderness area) used to have a very nice wood lined pool with benches during the '70s. But it was dismantled and filled in because it had become a ridiculously popular party site that was a headache for the Baker Lake rangers. |
Nonetheless, Baker Hot Springs still has a usable pool, unlike Kennedy.
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Randito
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
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Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:04 pm |
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| Schroder wrote: | | Nonetheless, Baker Hot Springs still has a usable pool, unlike Kennedy. |
There is a small pool now, nothing like the 12x12x5 pool of 102F water that I recall at Baker in the '70s.
My memory of Kennedy was an 6x6x5 pool of murky red water at 96F. :/
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touron
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Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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Location: Plymouth Rock |
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touron
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Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:56 pm |
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| RandyHiker wrote: | | Schroder wrote: | | Nonetheless, Baker Hot Springs still has a usable pool, unlike Kennedy. |
There is a small pool now, nothing like the 12x12x5 pool of 102F water that I recall at Baker in the '70s.
My memory of Kennedy was an 6x6x5 pool of murky red water at 96F. :/ |
Sounds kind of like Snoholic's picture a few pages back only maybe a little deeper:
Add a few boards and this could be Kennedy the 2nd
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
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Snowbrushy
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Joined: 23 Jul 2003
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| touron wrote: | | Add a few boards and this could be Kennedy the 2nd |
And a couple of topless girls! 
What if Kennedy is really, really historical? REALLY. I don't like to speculate about real history because I was taught differently. However, that was before internet forums like this where I can't possibly get caught by some of my old history teachers and profs.. 
What if - that hot spring was originally built for the exclusive use and enjoyment of FS lookouts and the guard at the guard station? That would make it historical I believe. How many lookouts were in that area? Meadow Mountain I believe was one. There may have been many more at one time.
Harvey Manning wrote that the hot spring has a cement bottom or floor. How do bags of cement get up there? Mules or horses. Who had the stock in the area? Mr. Bedal and his daughters. Who did they sometimes work for? The Forest Service.
I think I'm on to something here! Now, what if a certain famous Forest Service Boss who was know to love his men authorized the building of Kennedy hot springs as R&R for his many guys in that mountain neighborhood?
I believe that that would make Kennedy at least as historical as Green Mountain Lookout.
And that's how history speculation works.. But what if it's all true??
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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touron
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touron
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Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:10 am |
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So then this would mean that the Kennedy family did not meet at these springs during the 1930's to discuss political strategies?
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
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Snowbrushy
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Joined: 23 Jul 2003
Posts: 6670 | TRs | Pics
Location: South Sound |
Who was Kennedy? That's a good question. Awhile back I called the North Bend ranger station and asked to speak to the Forest historian about Kennedy Hot Springs. I had called there years ago about the Golden Tunnel. He supposedly keeps a desk there but he never seems to be in. To this day I've never spoken to him. Maybe he's a ghost. About Kennedy - I was referred to Darrington ranger station. I'll bet that Fred Beckey knows some history about Kennedy Hot Springs. Maybe he knew Mr. Kennedy.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Kim Brown
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009
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Kennedy was an outlaw who hid back there. Russ Hanbey wrote a nice article about the history of Kennedy several years ago. Schroder posted the article not too long about in one of the myriad Kennedy Hot Springs threads. You can probably find it fairly easily.
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."
Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Kim's right, back in the late 20's to early 30's Joseph Kennedy the father of the clan was importing Canadian Club rye into Boston via his fleet of sailing racers. Unfortunately the heat was increasing on the East Coast and the revenoors started using the new cigarette racers in pursuit. He changed his attention to the relatively un policed West Coast. He formed a partnership with Mr. ole son the dean of Puget Sound bootleggers. They headed out from Victoria in speedboats to a stash on Discovery Island. The hooch was then distributed to the West Coast. The majority was transported by rail via the Iron Goat to the thirsty east coast. A spur went to supply the miners at Monte Cristobalite and the lodge at Big 4. The miners had discovered the Hot Springs by then and they and the bootlegers set up a bordello/speakeasy at the site then known as Honeymoon Hotsprings. Soon the name was changed to that of the most famous resident. - inspired by a true story (just like Fargo).
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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trestle
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trestle
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Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:07 pm |
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Mix in a Denny and you have a screenplay.
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode
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