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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Jun 06, 2005 6:45 pm 
ditto.gif ditto.gif In case it is not clear that was the point of my post. I came back after an active weekend and saw about 120 posts on whether or not someone should post to a site for Trail Reports wazzup.gif It just seemed really lame to me.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Allison
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Allison
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PostMon Jun 06, 2005 7:46 pm 
Quote:
Until then, your junior high school debate tactics are beyond transparent.
This thread is about stewardship. Please take this sort of rhetoric elsewhere.* *I acknowledge that I am not a moderator. Having said that, I started this thread in order to have a focused discussion about TR/no TR. Most posters have made great comments on that subject. Please take your squabbling elsewhere. THANK YOU.

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borank
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borank
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PostMon Jun 06, 2005 7:48 pm 
Backpacker Joe wrote:
I can say that I've been two places in the ALW that showed ZERO signs of human life or activity. I can only imagine the places Yoda (Borank) and his fellow Jedi knights have seen/been to. There is true wilderness out there, you just have to look for it.
Unfortunately, the true wilderness is shrinking at an alarming rate, but I guess I'm becoming more of a realist. There have been no systematic, scientific studies to prove that exposure in various forms (including verbal only) result in increased usage of a given destination, even though people like myself can provide dozens upon dozens of anecdotal accounts of exactly that phenomenon. It doesn’t take thousands of boot tracks to diminish the wilderness character of a location, in some cases, not even dozens. But because there are widely divergent opinions as to what constitutes wilderness and what land values we would like to preserve; differences in definitions of words like pristine, untrammeled, or even trampled, the bottom line is that people will think what they will, regardless. Not unlike the rest of life. If you look at the western US for the last century, the pattern of growing population and shrinking wilderness rolls on inexorably. Thus, to expect things alpine to stay status quo or even reverse trend is like expecting an umbrella to stop a tidal wave. People can entrench themselves behind dogmas, but the resulting fight often takes on a life of its own to the detriment of the original issue. To me, the object is making choices to delay the inevitable. To that end, I really appreciated oosik's take on TRs. There seem to be plenty of resources pointing to plenty of destinations already available to meet the green-bonding needs of puget-tropolis. If you discover a pristine gem, leave it shrouded in mystery for the next party to discover.

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#19
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PostMon Jun 06, 2005 8:10 pm 
marylou wrote:
I acknowledge that I am not a moderator. Having said that, I started this thread in order to have a focused discussion about TR/no TR. Most posters have made great comments on that subject. Please take your squabbling elsewhere. THANK YOU.
You say great comments have been made in this thread. What have you learned that you didn't already know? Has you postion changed? Are you now more or less likely to TR given the below statement?
Quote:
When is it, in your mind, a good or bad idea to write/not write a TR? Me, I generally don't write a TR if I've visited a good place (generally a lake) that has a bootpath all the way to it, but not a system trail. If a place is in the system, I'll always write a TR unless the place is so often visited that it's not necessary. If it's off trail and of average quality, sure I'll TR it if I feel like it.
I see nothing that has been rehashed in this thread that would change my opinion, of course I seemingly changed sides yesterday and wasn't called on it. paranoid.gif MC, do you know how many times I came back on a Sunday to find you'd been argueing politics. Nearly everyone on this site is active. Give it a rest. moon.gif

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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn



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Now with Retsyn
PostMon Jun 06, 2005 8:25 pm 
marylou wrote:
Please take this sort of rhetoric elsewhere.
Please stop resurrecting such text. I will answer any post directed to me, whether you like it or not. We were back on topic until your post. Please stop trolling. THANK YOU.

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Jun 06, 2005 9:17 pm 
wow, we have folks so darned active that TR's and the discussion of same don't matter. That's amazing. I laud all the activity that takes place. But not one bit of activity or lack of same changes what is under discussion here. It's nice you're active here, active there, actively being active in an active way. But when you return, the question remains.... what happens AFTER all the active? Thus the point of the thread. Borank nailed it.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn



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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn
PostMon Jun 06, 2005 9:31 pm 
borank wrote:
If you discover a pristine gem, leave it shrouded in mystery for the next party to discover.
Well said; that's a fine sentiment and I agree. By doing so, one will likely feel good about preserving such a "gem" — nothing wrong with that. But perhaps by posting a trip report to the "gem," you'll help somebody discover it who without your help, may never have discovered it. Isn't helping somebody to discover a "gem" as noble as leaving a "gem" shrouded in mystery for the next party to discover?

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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oosik
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PostMon Jun 06, 2005 10:18 pm 
Blue Dome wrote:
borank wrote:
If you discover a pristine gem, leave it shrouded in mystery for the next party to discover.
Isn't helping somebody to discover a "gem" as noble as leaving a "gem" shrouded in mystery for the next party to discover?
Green bonding is best accomplished in areas where the land has been hardened for quantities of people, and where folks are less likely to get themselves in trouble. Getting to less traveled areas likely entails greater skills than a typical green bonding trip. Luring folks along without hand holding them along the way is encouraging them to attempt things before they are ready. When they are ready, they can take a map and navigation aids and figure it out how to get there themselves. And feel proud that they figured it out. Hopefully by that point they have picked up low impact travel skills too. At the risk of being redundant, read my earlier post Like I said: Once the outcome is known, there is no adventure, only just physical exercise.

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Blue Dome
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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn
PostMon Jun 06, 2005 10:33 pm 
oosik wrote:
Once the outcome is known, there is no adventure, only just physical exercise.
Generally speaking, I happen to agree with your post, but other folks may not in two ways: For some, to risk a cliché, the journey is the “adventure” even with the outcome well known in advance, i.e. summiting Mt. Rainier. Also, “adventure” is quite subjective — for some folks, hiking up Mt. Si may be an adventure. I suppose the point is, what constitutes “adventure” is different for everybody — whether it’s Mt. Si or Mt. Rainier. And, should our personal definitions of adventure determine what gets posted in a trip report? Shouldn’t we let people decide what is their adventure and whether or not to attempt to go to a destination?

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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Tom
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Tom
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PostMon Jun 06, 2005 10:34 pm 
Blue Dome wrote:
Isn't helping somebody to discover a "gem" as noble as leaving a "gem" shrouded in mystery for the next party to discover?
If helping someone discover that gem would result in changing the character of the place I'd say no.

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Blue Dome
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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn
PostMon Jun 06, 2005 10:40 pm 
Tom wrote:
If helping someone discover that gem would result in changing the character of the place I'd say no.
I happen to agree with you, but define “changing the character of the place.” Is one party visiting a destination going to change the character? They might, but you have no way of knowing that in advance. Isn’t helping one person or one party to discover a “gem,” and the happiness it would bring them, a noble thing on your part? Could there be a greater gift?

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Jun 07, 2005 12:00 am 
Quote:
Shouldn’t we let people decide what is their adventure and whether or not to attempt to go to a destination?
Why of course! This point is not at issue, as far as I can see.. will anyone here speak up to defend not allowing self definition of adventure and power to call destinations? Seriously. I don't see how I am not allowing people to decide what their adventure is just because I don't write TR's on some places. And the motives issue is kind of a tanget, IMO. We are discussing physical visitations, and boots count, no matter why they are there or what they feel an adventure is. if you had a boot counter on that one rock to cross the creek, it would register no matter the motivations of the boot's owner.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Jun 07, 2005 12:08 am 
Quote:
I happen to agree with you, but define “changing the character of the place.” Is one party visiting a destination going to change the character? They might, but you have no way of knowing that in advance.
No, but since he's the one making the ethical decision for himself, it's his call, isn't it? His volition, his will, his responsibility for what he commits to paper? He may feel he can't take the risk. If he guesses wrong, he's contributed to the damage he didn't want to see. After all, the whole point *for* TR's is they are valuable information, is it not? How could he provide information, and not be responsible for what he is writing?

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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