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jenjen
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jenjen
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PostTue Jun 21, 2005 10:59 pm 
Most of you know I have goats that I pack with occasionally. The heaviest of them weighs 200 lbs, and they have soft, flexible feet. That means they do less damage to the trail than your average American male. They do, however, munch on the foliage - they sample a fern here and a fir tree there, maybe some lupine a little further on. The goats aren't hungry - I pack in feed for them - they just nibble, there's nothing I can do to stop them from doing that. I try and scatter their poop, but I know that I don't get all of it and I can't tell it from deer poop. I'm very careful to make sure I'm taking them and keeping them on stock trails. Goats by nature are herd animals, so once they've bonded to their person they won't wander away - I find this to be true for my guys. They just don't let me out of their sight. I'm wondering what everyone's thoughts are about stock on wilderness trails in general? Horses, llamas, goats, sheep, etc.... I don't like stepping in horse poop any more than anyone else. I don't like looking at denuded meadows because the people managing their stock didn't pack in feed. When I've been out with the critters, I run into an equal number of people who are fascinated with the goats and who are appalled that pack animals are allowed in the wilderness. Interestingly enough, most of the appalled people also happen to have unleased dogs who are bouncing all over the place and facing off with my horned goats (they do know how to use those pointy things on their heads). My perspective is that on a whole the goats cause less damage to the forest than thoughtless humans cutting swithbacks and not watching where they walk. I know for a fact that I see more wildlife when I'm with the goats than I do when I'm out with a dog. The goats are quieter, and obviously not predators. I'm also of the mind that if you don't want to deal with pack animals, most of the trails in the Mt. Baker Snoqualmie Wilderness do not allow stock - so there's a whole world of hiking available. Thoughts? Arguments? Flames?

If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Jun 21, 2005 11:23 pm 
My opinion really depends upon the animals I have packed with Llamas and Horses and much prefer the Llama because they do not crap on the trail as they are "pilers". I do not really like horses very much because of the mess flies and damage to trails. I believe that mountain bikes should be allowed where ever horses are. mad.gif It totally escapes me why they are allowed anywhere except Emerald Downs and riders have deprived bikers of many good rides such as Redmond watershed and bridal trails state park not to mention MFS. They cause less damage and most bikers do not use the trail for a toilet. I am aware that Harvey Manning and Mike Vanderman may flame me moon.gif . I do not know that much about goats but am aware they are very destructive in africa (here I think our peradators would take care of ferial ones. With the availability of ultra light gear I do not really see the need for any pack animals except for trail crews and hunting season where they serve a real purpose.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Blue Dome
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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn
PostTue Jun 21, 2005 11:49 pm 
I’ve seldom run into pack animals, and when I have, the folks caring for them have always had things under control. What I mean is, without the intent of starting another “dog” thread, I’ve only seen horses and mules, and the folks tending them have always been very conscientious. Unfortunately, that’s opposed to some dog owners whose dogs are barking and chasing everything and everybody in sight. Pack animal folks are fine on trails deemed appropriate. Sure, there is impact: occasional poop on the trail is no big deal; and where animals are tethered in camp is often a designated area. Dog owners should be allowed to have their leashed dogs on those same trails. Irresponsible dog owners… well, 'nuff has been said about that subject.
Malachai Constant wrote:
With the availability of ultra light gear I do not really see the need for any pack animals
I don’t think a “need” is the primary reason for many pack animal folks — they just enjoy it. Maybe they like bringing the heavy goodies instead of a toothbrush with a cut-off handle. Postscript: I think mountain bikes should be allowed at ski areas in the summer, logging roads or other dirt roads, and nowhere else. Something about mechanized travel that doesn't fit with the wilderness like two and four legged travel does.

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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jenjen
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jenjen
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PostWed Jun 22, 2005 12:08 am 
Llamas and goats are alot alike, except goats don't pile the way llamas do, and they don't spit. Their foot structure and walking styles are very similar. I have come to the painful realization that the only way I can do long trips into the backcountry is if some other critter helps carry the weight. My knee just won't do more than 30#, so if I want to head out for longer than a week something has to help me carry the food weight. And, I really do like the goats - they're really just big useful pets.

If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
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ahumblefool
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ahumblefool
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PostWed Jun 22, 2005 7:17 am 
Personally Jen, I do not mind as long as the owner is responsible. The problem is that it only takes one irresponsible person to damage the image of all the good ones. That is what happened with me and dogs on the trail. Honestly, I see more damage from families allowing their children to run through fragile meadows, using shortcuts and ignoring closed areas that are trying to be renovated. I teach my children outdoor respect and courtesy can not understand why more do not. shakehead.gif I respect people who respect the areas that they visit. It sounds like you are one of those, so it is fine with me.

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to."
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Ski
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PostWed Jun 22, 2005 7:57 am 
pack animals
I don't have any major issues with pack animals on trails, whether they are in wilderness areas or otherwise. I am annoyed by animal owners who don't make an attempt to minimize the impact ( ie: leaving stock tethered to small trees for hours and hours ( Olympics ), or fouling small bodies of water ( Wallowa-Whitman NF ). I learned at a very early age to just try to avoid the poop they leave on the trail, although in some places it's nearly impossible. Dry trails in Eastern Washington and Oregon can sometimes be quite a mess. I am more annoyed by hikers who are totally clueless when encountering stock on a trail: waving their arms, shouting, or refusing to yield the trail and get out of the animals' way. I agree totally with you that dogs are a greater nuisance. Most of the encounters I've had with dogs have been okay, but the occasional off-leash dog jumping, licking, and barking as their owners say "don't worry, he's harmless" causes me to gnash my teeth. There will always be a small percentage of yahoos in any user group, be they hikers, bikers, stock packers, or dirt-bike riders. I've seen equal levels of idiocy from all the above. I think the biggest problem with stock on trails is that few people understand that most trails in the west were built using pack animals, for use by pack animals, and they are overall a fairly conscientious user group. As stock users and dirt-bike riders are restricted to fewer and fewer trails, their impact on those trails available to them will of course increase. Hikers have the option to check trail regulations and may choose not to use trails which are 'multi-use'.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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justybug
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PostFri Jul 01, 2005 2:24 am 
i'm a pretty responsible dog owner, and you sound like a pretty responsible goat owner, so i'd probably not have any issues with em on the trail. i like goats anyway, they're just weird!! i've been giving some thought to the trade offs with horse access to trails, being that yeah, they chew them up, but they can also haul in a lot of repair equipment when the time comes. any animals on the trail who are just unruly, or unlucky enough to have twits taking care of them, well i'm just hoping my luck holds out on that one.. most of the dogs i've encountered have been well-mannered, i've had more problems with territorial animals in my neighborhood. why is it exactly that i'm supposed to cart out my dogs' crap, yet pack animals are exempted from this? dietary differences alone? wouldn't it be easier for the pack animals to cover this chore, or is it a volumetric issue.. hmmmmm.

kenya believe it?? "Time is so everything doesn't happen at once. Space is so everything doesn't happen to you."
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Hiker Boy
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Hiker Boy
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PostFri Jul 01, 2005 3:01 am 
While I don't like walking on trails filled with horse droppings, I think that pack animals have a historic right to be on most of the trails. Trail erosion isn't a really big issue with pack horses and mules up here because the same people who use the animals usually maintain the trails they travel on. Pack animals, dogs, kids....it's all good as long as they are all under control and respectful of their surroundings and other travellers.

Honey Badger Don't Care!
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Dante
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PostFri Jul 01, 2005 8:11 am 
I don't like seeing domesticated animals or their crap on the trail. That said, the fact is it's legal for them to be on many trails and it's historically precedented. Legal or not, there's not much I can do about it. It doesn't bug me much if the animals are well behaved and the owners responsible. I don't see other people's animals much because I typically hike on less popular trails or off trail.

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Snowshoe Hare
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Snowshoe Hare
Defunct lagomorph
PostFri Jul 01, 2005 4:04 pm 
It's never been an issue with me, I've only encountered a few horse riders over the years. One time a person brought along her two llamas on a trail workparty- they seemed pretty mellow (we were petting them all day until she said they don't really care for that- I don't remember if she said what they do when they get pissed off. Hawking a loogie sounds about right though lol.gif ) . I have more of an issue with dogs off leash and basically on the trail in general. But that's my thing and I just go with the flow. I've seen way too many jerk owners who don't control them and think everyone is on their same wavelength. I wonder also how "natural" wildlife responds to domesticated stock like llamas, sheep, goats and the like. Sure man has an impact on the natural world when we venture out into the wilds- but most of us smile.gif don't bark, vocalize or run up to wildlife either. We usually can control our impact better than our animal friends/pets.

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jenjen
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jenjen
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PostFri Jul 01, 2005 4:41 pm 
With horses and goats - they're basically always pooping. If their gut is working, it just moves everything on out. So picking up after them can get very old very quickly. That said, they do make bags that you hang under the business end of the horse's digestive tract that will catch most of it. They use these in some parades. They don't make any that are goat sized, unfortunately, so I'm stuck with going behind them and getting as much as I can out of the trail. (goat poop = little hard "berries", looks alot like deer poop) Also, pack animals are normally being led. Unless someone is hiking behind you alot of the time you don't know if there are any presents left behind or not. As far as wildlife - I see as many critters with the goats as I do when I'm solo. Somehow the critters can sense the difference between a predator walking down the trail and just another prey animal.

If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
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Quark
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
PostFri Jul 01, 2005 7:01 pm 
No problem with packstrings. I don't mind the packpoop - they can't help it, and I like the bit of the frontierism in the packstrings. One pile of human waste and TP on bushes bothers me more than miles of horse dung. Horses can't help it, and can't reason. Humans (are supposed to be able to) reason and have some common sense. MC, methinks bikes and horses prolly don't mix very well on the same trail. I'm just thinking out loud, here, I'm no authority. A bike coming around a bend, or downhill will probably spook a horse. Even if the biker sees the packstring ahead of time, stops, gets off the bike and steps downhill to allow the pack to pass by, a horse would likely still get spooked.* Bikes also probably look funny to a horse, and the horse will balk or get spooked. A biker in his or her helmet I know would definately spook a horse; trailcrew are usually instructed to take their hardhats off when stepping downhill as horses come by; horses don't like shiny hats and things that look strange. Also, bike trails and horse trails are built to different standards. A trail churned up by horses is likely to be troublesome to bikers. A trail built on bike standards (different from hiker and horse standards) can't handle horse traffic. *this perfect scenario still creates disturbance in the world of horses; unlikely 100% of the time.

"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate." Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Jul 01, 2005 8:26 pm 
Your arguments have been considered but are found to be nonpersuasive. I really couldn't care less about how horses feel about anything rolleyes.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore



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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
PostFri Jul 01, 2005 8:38 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
I really couldn't care less about how horses feel about anything rolleyes.gif
Your rebuttal's worse than my argument. You know, you'd make a lousy lawyer. wink.gif

"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate." Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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polarbear
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PostFri Jul 01, 2005 8:54 pm 
I like seeing pack animals on the trail. It adds to the variety. up.gif

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