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Bushwacker
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Bushwacker
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PostMon Sep 23, 2002 6:07 pm 
Went into Big Four Sunday, just to kill some time on a nice day. According to the Darrington Ranger District website, the trail would be closed 9/19-9/20 for repairs. I wanted to see how much more money could be spent on this trail. Well, IMO if anyone wants to know where most trail funds are going, it's here. Considering the expense for the winter cleanup, last years trail improvements, and now the latest improvement of crushed gravel everywhere, the amount of money spent here is ridiculous. It isn't a trail anymore, it's a nature walk. The only things missing are peanut and hot dog vendors. What's next.......a monorail. Maybe someone should point out that FSR 41 needs repairing. Not one penny has been spent to fix that situation, so some of us could take advantage of hiking into Three Fingers. BW mad.gif

"Wait by the river long enough and the bodies of your enemies will float by"...Sun Tsu
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Tom
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PostMon Sep 23, 2002 6:16 pm 
I felt the same way about the Denny Creek trail (to Melakwa Lakes). It was completely ridiculous. It was almost as if they were going out of their way to justify collecting money for trail park passes. I've been far more impressed by the money the FS has spent on fixing up some of the logging roads (which has actually been value added IMO).

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Sore Feet
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PostMon Sep 23, 2002 10:39 pm 
How long until they pave it ya think? I bet it will eventually, just a matter of time. Although I guess some of the work did help get rid of big boot-swallowing mud holes... And the bridge at the waterslides at Denny Creek wasn't exactly wasted money...(but I hear ya)

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-lol-
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 7:12 am 

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Quark
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 8:24 am 
I believe the intent with the Big Four trail is to eventually attempt to make it an accessible trail for wheelchairs for our wheelchair-bound comrades in life who deserve and desire to see things other than bus platforms and McDonalds. People who don't like or are unable to hike more difficult trails have a right to take thier grandmas and babies to see the mountains too - and unfortunately for some people, Denny Cr and Big Four are targets for transformation into easy trails so that people from other walks of life can enjoy the outdoors. It's a wonderful thing for these types of hikers, and promotes ADVOCACY FOR THE OUTDOORS (god I sound like a broken record on this subject).

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Tom
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 10:15 am 
Quote:
People who don't like or are unable to hike more difficult trails have a right to take thier grandmas and babies to see the mountains too
But only if they pay for a trail park pass, correct?
Quote:
It's a wonderful thing for these types of hikers, and promotes ADVOCACY FOR THE OUTDOORS
Are these the same advocates who support the trail park pass program? The same advocates that advocated closure of the MFK. Exactly whose advocates are they? What am I missing?

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Bushwacker
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 1:11 pm 
Look....I think it's great to make some trails accessible to all, but also this advocacy can be taken to extremes. This funding is overdone. IMO they have spent too much and made it too accessible. The ice cave basin can be a really dangerous place. I've been witness to some bizarre happenings in and around the ice caves. If you're going to make a place this accessible to all, then consider some safety factor other then posting a few signs. The bottom line is still trail pass money. BW biggrin.gif

"Wait by the river long enough and the bodies of your enemies will float by"...Sun Tsu
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Quark
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 4:48 pm 
Tom, you make it seem as if I implied those who need accessible trails don't pay for the trail park pass. There is nothing in my post that says that. Don't attempt to read between the lines if you don't understand what the lines actually say. Does the dictionary define "advocacy" as the closure of the Middle Fork? Why do you feel wheelchair users and grandmas agree with the closure of the Middle Fork? Some of those who advocate the closure of the MFK may also advocate for some things you agree with. With advocacy, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose - but with no advocacy, you don't stand a chance to ever win. Example: Someone who donated 15 acres to the Nature Conservancy and advocates that more land to be protected, yet agrees with the closure of the MFK. These things happen.

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Tom
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 5:37 pm 
Quark, correct me if I misunderstood, but in your original post you seemed to be arguing that folks have a "right" to see the mountains, that paving trails would encourage more folks to do so, and this would encourage more "advocacy". My point was that charging people for "trail maintenance" and then wasting it on "paving" trails does very little for supporting one's "rights" to see the mountains and if anything enourages less people to do so. As far as the MFK issue and the support of trail park pass fees by "advocacy groups", I was referring to a broken record from the past.

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Mike Collins
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 5:59 pm 
Duthc Miller Bridge
The bridge near the start of the Dutch Miller Trail is immense but a bridge is needed there. Craig and I were there June 1st when the area was covered with snow. We happened upon the bridge and were glad to see it as the creek could not have been forded easily because of all the snowmelt coursing down. Now in summer you can jump across the rocks but certainly not in late spring.

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tk-421
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tk-421
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 6:03 pm 
Tom wrote:
"paving" trails does very little for supporting one's "rights" to see the mountains and if anything enourages less people to do so.
Depends on the "people" you're talking about. Paving a trail would see a reduction in people who wear well broken-in hiking boots and know the difference between a gaiter and a gator. A paved trail would increase the other type of "hikers" (65 year old grandmas carrying a purse or a pack of rabid four year olds who have slipped their leashes), who have just as much right as anyone else to any part of the trail system. If the paved trail isn't to your liking, go elsewhere. When I want to just get outside and do something other than be inside, a nice paved, mindless trail is what I like. Most of the time, I scrabble around in the sticks and the mud and wonder how I got where I am, just like everyone else.

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Scrooge
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 8:40 pm 
There comes a point in the popularity of a trail where paving it is the only way to go. Hiked up Mutnomah Falls Trail recently? That's a mile of paving up a 700' climb - and it's the only economical way to maintain that trail. The same will be true at Big Four. Most people don't fall off the cliffs in the Gorge and most people won't fall in the bergschrund at the Ice Caves. Sometimes you heavy-duty outdoor types give ordinary people too little credit. And you surely cede them too little in the way of "rights".

Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
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David
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 9:16 pm 
Tom wrote:
I was referring to a broken record from the past?
Seems any time that someone, or some organization tries to do something good, there’s always some faction – usually those who didn’t get their way - who drags them through the mud and to the lynching tree Isn't it the truth, Glad you included the link... Welcome to Big Business, what America is made of and sadly enough will destroy before it is all over with. If there is money to be made it will be made and the quibbling on this website is not going to change that. The organizations HAVE to negotiate in order to get any wins at all. They have to give up something to get something. This is due to our Country having to keep so many diverse groups happy or at the very least at bay. Everyone IS entitled to the great outdoors, whether we as hikers, like it or not. We only have our ancestors to thank. For example, with the construction of the 1913 Columbia River Highway, Look at Multnomah Falls now! They were heros for building that highway, still are if you read about it. The point is, not alot has changed mentally since then, except for the major factor; There are way more people today. Who's fault is that? Here's a alternative viewpoint for you; I hiked a primitive trail in the Gorge that ended at Multnomah (mistake) While pushing through the crowd we received many "Indiana Jones" comments. They don't even realize that the trail went past the top of the Falls! Off thread but I had to..................

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polarbear
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 9:33 pm 
But it the highway hadn't been built, how would we hike to the falls. The US has some pretty cool highways. Some of them are almost works of art--that's what it should be afterall if you are going to build it through a nice place.

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David
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PostTue Sep 24, 2002 9:48 pm 
polarbear wrote:
But it the highway hadn't been built, how would we hike to the falls.
Oh, only to add to my point... There are those who do not believe these highways should even exist! What another opinion? How does one satisfy all in this diverse country we live in!?!

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