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Allison
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:26 pm 
Sure is a wacky coincidence that all of these softenings of environmental protections are all seemingly happening all at once!! dizzy.gif I wonder if there is money to be made by these moves? wink.gif

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Quark
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:30 pm 
If I'm wrong, let me know. But wasn't the Forest Service created to manage the extraction of resources? Not to keep it's lands pristine...? Managing recreation and the Wilderness Act came later. I'm not exactly celebrating about the suit, and I don't know enough about it to say that no one needs the bounty (lots of wood products we use come from private industry tree farms), but...seems to me the FS is just doing it's job. Saying "The FS is at it again" shows that still, after 100 years, the public doesn't know what the FS is there for in the first place.

"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate." Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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wildernessed
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:31 pm 
It's always about the money hockeygrin.gif

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Tom
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:36 pm 
Quote:
Sure is a wacky coincidence that all of these softenings of environmental protections are all seemingly happening all at once!!
The repeal of the roadless rule is old news (by a couple years) so "happening all at once" is a bit of a stretch. The only thing new here is it appears a few states are suing. That seems odd given my recollection was the repeal allowed states to decide for themselves.

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Quark
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:37 pm 
Of course it's about money. It always was. from Day One. No surprise there.

"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate." Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:42 pm 
States only grt to decide "for themselves" if they go along with the administration (like Idaho and Utah) otherwise they have to sue dizzy.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Allison
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:46 pm 
There was this deal just a bit ago about more privitization in the Parks, and then the memo this week about possible changes to Park policy. There was news this week about Federal relaxation of air quality standards. There has been talk about salvage logging in Wilderness (Healthy Forests Act, haha)...so there has been a series of events here that might lead a person to see a pattern of weakening enviromental protection standards of late.

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#19
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 8:48 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
Well lets see, cut funds to repair levee in New Orleans, spend the money for the "Noble Cause" in Iraq. Deny Global warming in spite of melting of alpine glaciers in the NW, Breakup of West Antartic ice sheet and opening of northwest passage for the first time in a thousand years. Increased intensity of hurricanes is well known byproduct of global warming. Gulf water temp 90 degrees F. Not breakoff Crawford vacation because afraid of dead vets mom.
Continued in the DC.

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Aug 31, 2005 9:19 pm 
Quote:
Sure is a wacky coincidence that all of these softenings of environmental protections are all seemingly happening all at once!!
Not sure how to respond to that, could it be it's because there's a different agenda now? Of course there is. That's the point. Different administrations do different things. The focus now is not on locking up land to the exclusion of all but environmental totems. The way in which this is viewed shows again the desire to view every square inch as sacrosanct and unavailable to anyone but for their purposes. wilderness, wilderness boundary areas, the forest surrounding that, etc etc. Yes, some roads may be built, and as we see from current happenings, they can be unmade as well.
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I wonder if there is money to be made by these moves?
Of course. And things created for people who want them. That part makes the money part possible. If this is a problem, perhaps it's time to transfer land to an agency with the task of facilitating extraction, per se. After all, that's as necessary to the nation as saving wilderness. Then the FS can pursue the agenda many here want for it, while the other agency serves what i and others want.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Scout
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PostThu Sep 01, 2005 11:23 am 
Yes, of course, we all need wood, but do we need to cut old-growth reserves and build more logging roads? There is a staggering amount of logging roads in the northwest and plenty of second-growth lumber. I suggest utilizing the roads that are already there. I know of several roadless areas that are pristine and are not wilderness or national park or protected in any official way and these are some of my favorite places in Oregon. http://www.oregonwild.org/orwildrlds.html Lots of these areas are now at risk and you can see just how small a percentage of the forest that these places are in Oregon by clicking below: http://www.wilderness.org/OurIssues/Roadless/AtRisk/Oregon.cfm Wildlife thrive in these areas. Wildlife thrives best in continuous tracks of wilderness or roadless areas. Under this new rule all it will take is one pro-logging greedy pro-corporate governor to allow these areas to be logged and they are gone. I have seen first hand, that the forest service almost always tries to log the largest and oldest trees (because they are the most profitable). Luckily in my state the governer is pro-environment.

Protect what you love so it lasts forever!
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Sep 01, 2005 12:37 pm 
Some will tell you we don't "need" the wood, but I'm not comfortable judging 'need' in this sense. The market indicates need by telling us if the price is high enough to profitably extract lumber. I'll grant this should be done without subsidy so that the timber companies are not getting artificially low pricing.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Sep 01, 2005 12:52 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
Some will tell you we don't "need" the wood, but I'm not comfortable judging 'need' in this sense. The market indicates need by telling us if the price is high enough to profitably extract lumber. I'll grant this should be done without subsidy so that the timber companies are not getting artificially low pricing.
In that event you will have no old growth because it always more attractive "to the market" to cut large publicly owned trees than to grow and tend your own dizzy.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Sep 01, 2005 1:11 pm 
Do we know that to be the case if we make sure public cutting is non subsidized? I don't believe we do. We have people making that assumption in defense of their selected position on this yes.... but since we have not yet eliminated subsidized timber sales as far as I can tell, the actuality of proving your contention has not been met.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Sep 01, 2005 3:02 pm 
Yes, it is impossible to prove a universal negative, satisfied confused.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Stefan
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PostThu Sep 01, 2005 4:01 pm 
I liked it when Georgie was on vacation. Nothing happened. Put all legislators on permanent paid vacation!

Art is an adventure.
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