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WTM Member
Joined: 03 Jul 2003 Posts: 231 | TRs | Pics
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WTM
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Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:17 pm
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Oh well. Looks like a good thing that I've gotten used to getting to the N. Fk Sauk Trail via Darrington.
Group opposes reopening Mt Loop
I think this is a continuation of an old story. I have heard that it was once proposed that the section of the Mt Loop between Barlow Pass and the White Chuck Road be paved. But this was opposed by 'certain environmental groups'. Are these the same groups that now oppose reopening of the road?
I'm not sure I disagree with them.
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Tom Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 17851 | TRs | Pics
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Tom
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Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:37 pm
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Quote: | washes out approximately every 10 years (justification)
complete road closure, with road decommissioning
should be left for nonmotorized trail users |
deja vu
Quote: | Sound bothers the fish |
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:44 pm
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same old crap, different day. same elitist arguments, making demands to satisfy their selected user groups while locking others out. Now they don't even bother confining their predation upon access to wilderness.
count on other groups who supported the closure of other roads to jump right in, after all, the religious ideal of the acceptable ways to recreate casts it's spell on more folks than just these.
gee, every ten years a very popular road washes out. so reroute it. problem solved.
of course, that assumes the problem is actually the costs... when really, it's that people can drive the road in the first place. it offends the sensibilities of the foot only crowd to have people who don't want to walk being in the mountains.
just like leaving another road open but unmaintained simply was not good enough.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Guiran Member
Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 621 | TRs | Pics Location: University of Washington |
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Guiran
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Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:25 pm
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:33 pm
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Don't be surprised when it happens. This mission creep occurred with the Md Fk, it occurs in the areas surrounding what was agreed to be wilderness, and since they have found success, it will occur elsewhere.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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aestivate Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 199 | TRs | Pics
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Guiran wrote: | The washed out area of the Mtn. Loop is hardly comparable to the Middle Fork. The only access that's I'm aware of being lost due to the washouts is Elliot Creek and one of the climbing approaches for Sloan. |
Not even that. The Bedal creek trailhead (bedal creek approach to sloan from the W) remains car-accessible from Darrington. The Washed-out section of the Mt Loop starts shortly upstream from where the Bedal Ck road heads uphill.
Elliott Creek and Goat lake remain accessible as day hikes from Monte Cristo lakes. Admittedly it's longer (about a half-mile walk on the closed Mt loop to the turnoff , but that doesn't make it worse.
Guiran wrote: | Other area roads: Suiattle River Road, White Chuck Road, and Squire Creek Road also need repairs and the loss of those roads has cut off significant access to trailheads in the Darrington district. I'd rather see those fixed than the Mtn. Loop when it comes down to it. If these same groups start opposing repairs to them I'll be more likely to get all |
of these three:
-FS has no plans to reopen Squire Creek road. past the big slide. They don't regard the slide as stable enough yet, if ever. And I doubt they'll ever have the money to fix it, since it would have to come out of their regular road budget, not the nation-wide federal ERFO flood slush fund which would pay for the others, since the slide is not flood related.
-The Suiattle river road is open to Downey creek. Only the last mile and a half of the road is still inaccessible by car. For an overnight or longer trip, this is a non-issue.
-That leaves only the Whitechuck road as a potential serious issue, if serious issue is defined as an enviro group having something to do with making a heavily used trailhead a lot harder to get to (ten miles harder, I would guess). And it's not clear that they will. Wait and see.
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aestivate Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 199 | TRs | Pics
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WTM wrote: | I think this is a continuation of an old story. I have heard that it was once proposed that the section of the Mt Loop between Barlow Pass and the White Chuck Road be paved. But this was opposed by 'certain environmental groups'. Are these the same groups that now oppose reopening of the road?
I'm not sure I disagree with them. |
Yes, Pilchuck Audobon was the principal group opposing the plan to widen, re-route, straighten, and pave the Mt Loop road from Barlow Pass to the Whitechuck confluence, and they are the group quoted in that recent article. It was indeed a pretty distasteful plan.
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:27 pm
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I can't see why paving the road is a bad idea, other than the cost since budgets are tight. doesn't this create a more stable roadbed and eliminate erosion from the road surface as occurs with dirt roads, as well as cutting down on dust, as well as adding gravel and grading every few years? seems once you paved it, maintainance may get cheaper as well.
of course, this also means more access.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Quark Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:41 pm
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Proves that the hands of the FS are often tied - many times their decisions aren't theirs alone (or at all); they're forced by public interest groups.
This month's Washington Trails magazine interviewed Gary Paull, MBSNF Wilderness Trails Coordinator, who said that of all the pleas for public input on the Suiattle Rv trail rebuilding, only 6 comments were received.
Even though only 6 people in the Pacific NW cared about the trails in Darrington District, the roads leading to them, barring a legal suit, will be repaired, thanks to FS personnel who lobbied hard on behalf of those 6 hikers. (acutally I think Congress was laughing so hard at this pitiful plea for 6 people that they couldn't think straight, and the FS got 'em at a weak moment).
Money for these roads is available, but the numerous required studies and reports haven't yet been finished. see this on usfs region 6 website
The bridge over Downey Cr has even been designed and $ is there, but one EA brought up a few minor issues with the fisheries service that needed to be addressed before going forward. Expect harmony in time for next year.
$ for the PCT is available, but the bridges need to be designed and EIS/EA need to be filed.
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:15 pm
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build the ding danged bridge and be done with it, take the EIS money and fix trails or something. git 'r done.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Quark Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:07 am
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agreed.
Democracy is usually a pain in the ass.
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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greg Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 1159 | TRs | Pics
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greg
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Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:27 am
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Disagreed.
The Skagit River system was once one of the most powerful producers of anadromous fish on the West Coast, now home to ESA-listed chinook salmon and bull trout and depressed stocks of wild steelhead and a whisp of its former self. Downey Creek itself is spawning habitat for bull trout, probably steelhead and maybe chinook. I like to catch salmon and steelhead, I like to eat 'em too, and I think its important that when they replace the bridge they do it without impact on fish and habitat.
Sound harming fish? May seem farfetched, but if they're blasting during a critical migration period it could have an impact.
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Quark Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:14 pm
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I understand about hte sound bothering the fish, too - the Rattlesnake Ridge trail was put on hold because blasting was necessary, but blasting would interrupt the falcon nesting processes.
The sound of road construction bothering the fish should be a timing issue, not an issue to nix the road all together.
The article said a FS engineer advised the new road has been designed to alleviate disturbance through the life of of the road. If the fisheries people don't think the road is going to bother the fish, why does the Pilchuck Audubon society think it will? What about the fish, is not good enough for the Audubon people?
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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MtnGoat Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:03 pm
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so don't blast during the run. problem solved. we can work it out.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Scrooge Famous Grouse
Joined: 16 Dec 2001 Posts: 6966 | TRs | Pics Location: wishful thinking |
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Scrooge
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Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:11 pm
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MtnGoat wrote: | same old crap, different day. same elitist arguments, making demands to satisfy their selected user groups while locking others out. Now they don't even bother confining their predation upon access to wilderness.
count on other groups who supported the closure of other roads to jump right in, after all, the religious ideal of the acceptable ways to recreate casts it's spell on more folks than just these.
gee, every ten years a very popular road washes out. so reroute it. problem solved.
of course, that assumes the problem is actually the costs... when really, it's that people can drive the road in the first place. it offends the sensibilities of the foot only crowd to have people who don't want to walk being in the mountains.
just like leaving another road open but unmaintained simply was not good enough. |
Right on, Chris.
And all you folks who say the Mountain Loop only provides access to two or three trailheads don't get it at all.
The Mountain Loop is not a Forest Service road, not a trailhead access route. It's a tourist route. It serves the tens of thousands of people who have no interest in hiking, but who, like my parents, like to go for a Sunday drive in the country, and maybe a picnic. ....... What better place than the banks of the Sauk and Stilly?
Trouble is, there's no Sunday drivers interest group. Their only voice in this kind of issue is usually their elected representative.
I wonder, though, if the AARP might take on an isolated issue like this one? Think I'll find out.
David
Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
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