Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Reopen the Mt Loop???
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polecatjoe
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polecatjoe
Silent but deadly
PostFri Sep 30, 2005 8:42 am 
OK, my 2 cents. Fixing the road doesn't do much to help us poor hikers, and , in fact, with the increased traffic it interferes with our access to trails, mines, Mountain View Inn, etc. BUT, it was a widely used touring road and is in fact designated a "Scenic Byway". Hundreds of vehicles per weekend used to drive the Loop; many of whom were fat fat tourists and denture-bouncing Grannies who only got out of their vehicles at Red Bridge or Bedal because they had to take a leak.I know this as fact because as a kid my Dad always complained about the "Sundaydrivers", not quite catching the irony that he was one. That being said, why is our chosen form of recreation more important or somehow more appropriate than theirs? When the old Monte Cristo Railroad was first built, one of the driving factors was tourism, and there were several businesses on the old Loop that have disappeared with the recent problems with road maintenance. Particularly from Silverton to Whitechuck, this Highway has some of the state's best scenery (viewable from a road) and makes a wonderful loop drive. I say we open it and keep it open. Build it better and relocate it as necessary to prevent future washouts. The world will be a better place for it, with dilettantes, debutantes and elitists all co-mingling happily in a big gooey mass! By the way, if you are coming from the north, like Seawallrunner, driving up through Darrington is a faster approach to the Barlow Pass area, with less traffic. So there! tongue.gif

"If we didn't live venturously, plucking the wild goat by the beard, and trembling over precipices, we should never be depressed, I've no doubt; but already should be faded, fatalistic and aged." - Virginia Woolf
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Quark
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
PostFri Sep 30, 2005 12:24 pm 
marylou wrote:
Quark is a complete loser with lingusticating.
No, no, no. The sentence is all wrong. It should be, "Quark is a complete loser in linguisticating, " not "with linguisticating." "With" means location. If I'm with linguisticating, that means I'm in a location with linguisticating, which would make "linguisticating" a noun. For instance, if your name is Linguisticating and I'm with you, then of course, I would be with Linguisticating. However, in the above sentence, "linguisticating" is a verb, and I can't be in a location with a verb. By using the word "in," meaning "process of," then by all means, "Quark is a complete loser in the process of linguisticating." is a proper sentence, albiet incorrect in fact. Any by the way; folks opining (verb) whether or not the Mtn Loop will remain open.....the public comment period is over, but if you wish to just vent (verb), whine and pontificate, then by all means, continue venting, whining and pontificating. But I hope all this energy can be used when it's needed most; during another comment period. I suggest people read the newspaper, periodically check the FS website or other websites having to do with outdoors or outdoor advocacy, and for Gods sake, next time we have a 100 year weather event such as the one of 2003, as named by the FS and as quoted by the media, feel free to assume there will be lots of stuff going on to repair. A 100 year weather event is the one time you can assume and not be wrong. If for nothing else, get on these websites out of morbid curiosity to see pictures of devastation and damage - if you would only do that, you'll eventually come to a link that will include text which says, "yo, things are happenin' & we need public help." Watch for that, and act accordingly.

"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate." Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn



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Blue Dome
Now with Retsyn
PostFri Sep 30, 2005 3:30 pm 
Damian wrote:
I hope some of this energy is being captured in the form of official comments to the road closure Sanhedrin. A bunch of hot air on this forum ain't worth a mound of dusty Waptus trail road apples.
Yep, laser beam spot-on.

“I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” — Harry S. Truman
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Allison
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Allison
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 5:53 pm 
Quote:
"Elitism" in this context is an emotionally charged meaningless term.
Yeah, I basically had to turn off that part of the conversation in my branium 'cuz it was making me so mad. It's just a huge distraction to the actual discussion at hand and serves no purpose except to disrupt and distract.

www.allisonoutside.com follow me on Twitter! @AllisonLWoods
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Snowbrushy
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 6:00 pm 
UNCLEAR
I'm unclear as to how they could rebuild the washed out section, perhap's for 100 yard's. The road is completely gone. The river now run's up against a steep, STEEP mountainside where the road used to be .. (of course anything's possible $$).

Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Snowshoe Hare
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Snowshoe Hare
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 6:13 pm 
polecatjoe, you are mistaken that one of the driving factors why the Everett and Monte Cristo Railway was built was due to tourism. Far from it. For quicker and better access to what the Rockefeller-led syndicate hoped was a killing in gold and silver from the mining in the Monte Cristo area. Tourism came into being once the town was established and word got out about the beauty along the line. Then some weekend (primarily Sunday) excursions for the lowlanders in Puget Sound country were started- everyone dressed in their Sunday best. Monte Cristo was a rough-hewn mining town so I doubt many of the city-folk excursionists spent much time there. Only years later after the mining never panned out did local businessmen the Rucker Bros really get the tourism trade going in the Stillaguamish Valley, building Big Four Inn resort (and the FS built the Dickerman trail nearby which benefitted the resort.) and using converted trolley cars and truck/car bodies on railroad wheels to transport folks up and down the line- since the tracks and infrastructure after just a few years/decades couldn't support normal train engines and cars. The whole story is better told in Monte Cristo or the Everett & Monte Cristo Railway books. As far as the Mtn. Loop situation now- I'd be perfectly happy just seeing the closed section get fixed and reopened the way it's been in the recent past before any floods hit (excellent gravel road-easily done by any vehicle). I actually like the Barlow Pass- Darrington section in some ways more than the paved Hwy 92 section - it feels more backwoodsy- you seem closer to a river, you need to drive slower and can take in the scenery maybe a bit more. But the entire loop is a real treasure and this hiker enjoys driving the route now and then just for that pleasure.

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touron
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 7:49 pm 
Well if terrorism was a big factor in the original Monte Cristo RR, then maybe they should rebuild the RR and the road. I'm buying my tickets now. Mountain hideaways can be a good thing in these dispearate times. agree.gif

Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
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aestivate
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aestivate
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 7:50 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
Pretty indeferent to the mountain loop "highway" but would really like to see the Suiattle and especially the Whitechuck open again, lost of nice loop hikes there. smile.gif
There *were*, you mean. No more whitechuck trail, either upper or lower. Gone, kaput, finished. What you are saying is you would really like both the whitechuck trail and the whitechuck road rebuilt. It seems that the process of rebuiliding the whitechuck trail could take a long time, far longer than the road,which is really only three discrete washouts in the lower 2 miles. It's pretty much like building five miles of brand new trail. They're having trouble enough with the PCT, which they've actually .managed to get ERFO money for. I am reminded of the Mailbox trail, which everybody seems to agree is a mess, and there ought to be a new better engineered trail, and it has been in the works for a long time, years, and I have no doubt it will eventually get built but it is not a matter for the impatient. Five years from now? Maybe. Ten? probably. And I can't see the whitechuck having the same visibility or funding priority as an I-90 trail. As for the lower whitechuck trail, the so-called whitechuck bench trail, well, I'd put that on the critically endangered list, could disappear without a trace, since it was not heavily used although a pleasant low-elevation early-season type walk.

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MtnGoat
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 7:58 pm 
Quote:
So the original point I made remains valid and is even reinforced: that anyone who disagrees with the road-opening agenda will be smeared and slandered with thinly-disguised code words.
code words? i didn't realize actually detailing the actions and reasoning behind road closures involved code words! wow! yes, whoever is for something involving govt action is essentially mandating it... and the fact is, closing roads mandates *fewer* uses and users. which is the goal of closures, is it not? So we have one side mandating continued access for all, for their reasons..... and one whose mandate is exclusion, closure, reducing access choices....pick your word for they all detail the same idea, for theirs. i'm at a loss to determine what part of this is code. note apparently this is not in contention for this road on a serious basis, but it is for others, and I have little doubt we'll wind up here again on another case.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 8:01 pm 
The old Whitechuck Trail branched off the Fire Creek trail on the top of the fill and could easily be reopened, when I was last there you could still follow it. You can take Fire Creek to the Pass and Mica Lake then out Lime Ridge or then down the PCT. You can also follow Fire Creek to Meadow Mountain and Crystal Lake and Circle Peak. There are way trails all along this route. While Kennedy HS is gone not a big loss you could still go to Lost Creek Ridge.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Allison
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Allison
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PostFri Sep 30, 2005 11:07 pm 
MtnGoat wrote:
Quote:
So the original point I made remains valid and is even reinforced: that anyone who disagrees with the road-opening agenda will be smeared and slandered with thinly-disguised code words.
code words? i didn't realize actually detailing the actions and reasoning behind road closures involved code words! wow! yes, whoever is for something involving govt action is essentially mandating it... and the fact is, closing roads mandates *fewer* uses and users. which is the goal of closures, is it not? So we have one side mandating continued access for all, for their reasons..... and one whose mandate is exclusion, closure, reducing access choices....pick your word for they all detail the same idea, for theirs. i'm at a loss to determine what part of this is code. note apparently this is not in contention for this road on a serious basis, but it is for others, and I have little doubt we'll wind up here again on another case.
This is not a serious contribution to this discussion, rather an attempt to incite people. it's getting tedious, Chris, especially since we all pretty much agree with you here.

www.allisonoutside.com follow me on Twitter! @AllisonLWoods
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polecatjoe
Silent but deadly



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polecatjoe
Silent but deadly
PostWed Oct 05, 2005 8:31 am 
Snowshoe Hare wrote:
polecatjoe, you are mistaken that one of the driving factors why the Everett and Monte Cristo Railway was built was due to tourism.
I beg to differ- although the railroad was built because of mining, locals were praising (and advertising) the scenery along the line before it was completed, and the first tourist excursions took place within a month of the competion, so I believe there can be no doubt that tourist income was considered well in advance. If not, the passenger cars would not have been available that soon, nor would the trips have been so immediately popular. By the way, I have read both books you referred to and have walked the better part of the old right-of-way from Granite Falls to Monte Cristo, and am more than a little familiar with the South Fork Stilly valley. My point was that tourism has been popular in the area since BEFORE the Loop was built, but is now declining, in large part because of the increasingly poor road conditions. The loss of and lack of maintenance to the campgrounds and picnic areas along the way doesn't help, either.

"If we didn't live venturously, plucking the wild goat by the beard, and trembling over precipices, we should never be depressed, I've no doubt; but already should be faded, fatalistic and aged." - Virginia Woolf
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Snowshoe Hare
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Snowshoe Hare
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PostWed Oct 05, 2005 6:08 pm 
My point was that it was built first and foremost for mining, that's all. Any info and books I brought up was for general readership, not to lecture you with as you seem to have thought. Looking through some history of the line I see that Hoyt, Colby et al when planning the line envisioned the driving force of course to be mining, but also income from forestry products, sales of Monte Cristo lots, passengers. I've found my photocopied newspaper clippings of local papers and magazines promoting the tourism angle from at least 1894. There were E&MC Railway ads touting excursions and tourism from at least that time that I have. No doubt there were earlier adverts. but I couldn't find any at the moment- I need to reread those books to boost my foggy memory on the line! I came across one ad from 1901-3 era when open-air excursion cars were apparently first used and were very popular. Those appear to be among some of the most popular and lucrative years for passenger/tourist business on the line. In 1896-7 the line was $50,000 in the black due a lot to the excursion business. Unfortunately the profit had to be used almost immediately in fixing the line due to severe damage from floods. That was a broken record on the line of course. Also two severe national monetary downturns in 1893 and 1897 didn't help either. Definitely, ever since not being able to drive up to Monte Cristo townsite and the lodge and cabins, etc. interest quickly faded years ago. Not having a "destination" spot like Sunrise, Paradise, Hurricane Ridge, Artist Point, etc . to drive to cut down significantly on people wanting to visit the area. Ending up at Barlow Pass now is pretty anticlimatic for most! lol.gif The appeal for most heading up there on a sunday drive would be the scenery along the way. People want to see something at the journey's end like a lake or vista from a mountain top or ridge - not some bermed non-descript road-end in winter (when Hwy 92 is open in winter to Barlow Pass) for example.

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touron
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PostWed Oct 05, 2005 7:12 pm 
Isn't Monte Cristo still pretty much private property? Who knows, maybe a hotel or ski area will go in there some day. Might not be bad for the region. Might get more people off the couch and out into the wilderness. People don't become hikers automatically. Usually the progression is: couch potato---->touron----->hiker.

Touron is a nougat of Arabic origin made with almonds and honey or sugar, without which it would just not be Christmas in Spain.
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greg
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greg
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PostThu Oct 06, 2005 6:28 am 
Touron, I believe the Forest Service has acquired most of the actual townsite now, including most of the remaining structures, such as they are.

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