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Tom
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 7:49 pm 
I always wonder if conservation groups do more harm than good by stretching the truth. But I'm sure it's 100% factual in this case, and particularly alarming that stands of old-growth trees might be chopped down to facilitate snowboarders and skiers crossing from one ski center to another. clown.gif

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Allison
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 7:57 pm 
Tom wrote:
I always wonder if conservation groups do more harm than good by stretching the truth.
One might safely say the same about logging companies. rolleyes.gif Remember, tomorrow is the DEIS deadline--I just finished and sent off my comments.

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Tom
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 8:00 pm 
Good point. I was up top yesterday and thought what a spectacular view and great place for a lodge just outside of wilderness to get folks excited about perserving true wilderness.

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Allison
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 8:10 pm 
Tom wrote:
Good point. I was up top yesterday and thought what a spectacular view and great place for a lodge just outside of wilderness to get folks excited about perserving true wilderness.
You mean from the top of Chair 2 at Alpental? confused.gif I guess the view from that spot has never seemed like so much to write home about, but then you tend to be very pro-development, and I tend to be very conservative about development in or near sensitve areas. Different perspectives, for certain.

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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 8:13 pm 
My occupation spends most of its time wondering about definitions. I looked over the proposal and do not have a huge problem with it, because most of that area seems already trashed to me. It would be nice to have the back of Hyak up again and most of those runs are okay, it is hardly Long Gone Lake. I think a lodge on top of Denny would be sort of cool though it does not seem viable economically as Crystal does not seem to run things in summer. The runs are already in the Alpental "backcountry" and are dangerous but no that tough. Besides the whole area will soon be mangroves due to GW (global warming) biggrin.gif

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Allison
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 8:30 pm 
I have a few major concerns about developing the upper area of Denny Mountain: One is that the area abuts the ALW. Right now the pressure on the area is limited to expert skiing in winter. Build a gondola and a lodge that's open year-round, and you automatically increase pressure. One way is that you get very casual users right at the edge of a very cliffy area, prone to wandering. This brings up obvious safety concerns. There are no system trails in the area, certainly the gondola will bring climbers right to the top, and then social trails develop, heading towards the Tooth and the upper Source Creek area, This in turn raises concers about non-system trails for the FS, and creates an attractive nuisance for the aforementioned casual users. The other piece of this is that the Snoqualmie Pass area receives an inconstent snowpack. Constructing a gondola and lodge represents a considerable financial risk for the resort--which is in of itself not of the public's concern--except that the development is on public land. Should the resort fall on hard times, we the public are left holding the bag, so to speak, and owning land further scarred by the development. In the case of Crystal, I didn't oppose the development as the snowpack and usership is different. I was unable to find anything in the DEIS to suggest that my concerns about potential impacts on the ALW have been studied. They can do whatever they want on the other side of the freeway as far as I'm concerned--the character of the landscape lacks the unique qualities that raise concerns with me about Alpental/Denny Mountain.

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Tom
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 8:42 pm 
marylou wrote:
You mean from the top of Chair 2 at Alpental? confused.gif I guess the view from that spot has never seemed like so much to write home about, but then you tend to be very pro-development, and I tend to be very conservative about development in or near sensitve areas. Different perspectives, for certain.
I've only been up to the top of Alpental twice. I was so impressed by the view the first time I was up there I've been wanting to go back ever since to check it out again. Honestly, that view was the only reason I went up to Alpental yesterday. I knew conditions would be crappy for skiing but that view is kick ass and it was a perfect day for it. You could see Baker to Stuart. It seems to me like a great spot for a viewpoint within an hour drive of Seattle and outside of wilderness, particularly for those who don't hike or ski. I'd love to take relatives up there in the winter. No doubt some will inevitably take in the view while eating a hot dog and pepsi which will offend some. And god fobid there might be tourons up there.

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Backpacker Joe
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 8:56 pm 
Tom wrote:
marylou wrote:
You mean from the top of Chair 2 at Alpental? confused.gif I guess the view from that spot has never seemed like so much to write home about, but then you tend to be very pro-development, and I tend to be very conservative about development in or near sensitve areas. Different perspectives, for certain.
And god fobid there might be tourons up there.
The sky is falling. The sky is falling..... hmmm.gif

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 9:01 pm 
BackPacker Joe wrote:
The sky is falling. The sky is falling..... hmmm.gif
The sky has already fell, we are just shuffling through the debris. shakehead.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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solohiker
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 9:09 pm 
Tom wrote:
It seems to me like a great spot for a viewpoint within an hour drive of Seattle and outside of wilderness, particularly for those who don't hike or ski. I'd love to take relatives up there in the winter. No doubt some will inevitably take in the view while eating a hot dog and pepsi which will offend some. And god fobid there might be tourons up there.
yep, my sentiments exactly. We're not talking about the enchantments, Glacier Peak, NCNP, or Rainier here ... this is Snoqualmie Pass!! It's already a 6 lane highway only a mile or two (as the crow flies) from the top of Denny. If ever there were a perfect place to concede to the masses that won't (or can't) work for their views this would be it. It might even force the Summit managment to clean up much of the ugly debris that usually litters the area in the summertime - it's kinda bad PR if they indeed plan on running the lift year round. And yes, it could even bring in a few converts next time there's a question of funding for some enviro-friendly legislation.

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tourinoron
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PostMon Feb 20, 2006 10:11 pm 
Tom wrote:
And god fobid there might be tourons up there.
It seems like an obvious place for a little chalet, but devlopers rarely think small. How about a chalet at the bottom of the slopes, with a few picnic tables at the top for munching on hotdogs in the summer?

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Allison
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PostTue Feb 21, 2006 12:24 am 
Tom wrote:
I knew conditions would be crappy for skiing but that view is kick ass and it was a perfect day for it. You could see Baker to Stuart.
how was the skiing? how did you get down Where did you go to get that view? I've seen Thomson and the Tooth on a clear day from up top, but not all of that.

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Tom
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PostTue Feb 21, 2006 12:56 am 
It was kind of icy. We skiied down (several times) like most folks. clown.gif You get the view from the top of Chair 2. You can see Keechelus Lake, Rainier, Kaleetan, Chair Peak, Baker to Glacier Peak, Big Snow, Snoqualmie Mtn, Red, Kendall, Overcoat, Thompson, Chimeny, Lemah, Chikamin, 4 Brothers, 3 Queens, Hibox, Rampart Ridge, Stuart. I'm sure I forgot a few. Wish I had brought my camera.

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touron
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PostTue Feb 21, 2006 8:21 am 
That is why I'm a litte nervous about a hotdog chalet at the top. Because you would be able to see it from...
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Keechelus Lake, Rainier, Kaleetan, Chair Peak, Baker to Glacier Peak, Big Snow, Snoqualmie Mtn, Red, Kendall, Overcoat, Thompson, Chimeny, Lemah, Chikamin, 4 Brothers, 3 Queens, Hibox, Rampart Ridge, Stuart. I'm sure I forgot a few.

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Maarten
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PostThu Mar 02, 2006 1:44 pm 
I got an email response from Conservation NW:
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Conditions at higher elevation shorten the growing season and slow growth rate, so trees on the pass though they look relatively small can be relatively old. Much of the forest around the ski areas is original old growth and has never been cut. Old growth conditions west of the Cascades is generally considered to begin at around 150 years. But old growth is as much about stand structure and woody legacy as age. Even by 80 years what are often called “mature” forests begin to show old growth characteristics, including as multiple-layered canopies, relatively large trees spaced farther apart, and large down and standing dead wood. Of course we have a deficit of old forest habitat in our region and it’s important to protect what we have, since a 100-year old stand is well on its way to old growth.

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