[Opus]

Looks like the FS is thinking about expanding the overnight permit requirement: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6600AP_WST_Alpine_Lakes_Wilderness.html

[Damian]

Bad idea. Just like it was for the Enchanments.

[Allison]

I think it's a fine idea. I think it's a fine idea for the Es as well, except for that the LWP is part of the Enchantment permit zone.

[Damian]

There are other proven cheaper and less bureaucratic ways to deal with the (alleged) overcrowding. Education and simple string and stick close offs have worked very well in numerous other places in the Alpine Lakes. This opinion is from having watched the effects of these tactics over the past 25 years in other very popular spots. Contrary to popular lore, the Enchantments were not overcrowded before the permit system. (flame suit on). Abuse, however, was common. The popularity of the area has soared as a result of the advertising the permit system has provided, so I agree there is no going back. We are smarter now and new more affordable approaches need to be thoroughly considered. The FS has been attempting to expand the Enchantment permit system for years. I hope they fail again.

[Dante]

I don't know. Strings and sticks may have slowed the damage at Ramparts, for example, but they are still in way worse shape than they were ten years ago. OTOH, permits imply enforcement, which is relatively easy and expensive in a limited area like the Enchantments. It would be a lot harder to police a larger area. Most of the time I don't see people, let alone rangers in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness Area, except near the parking lot...

[Backpacker Joe]

Ive only seen back country rangers a couple times in the ALW. Im surprised that the Ramparts havent been permitized years ago.....

[Quark]

I don't know what LWP stands for, but my thought is that a permit system for the Ingalls/Headlight Basin area would be an administrative drain - it is so easily accessible that the infractions would be a very high number (there are already infractions re dogs on Ingalls Way trail on a regular basis). High infractions mean high administration costs involved in policing the area. Region 6 should more trailworkers instead of rangers for a new permit area. Lots of families use that area to introduce their kids to the outdoors. Making difficult access would mean otherwise future outdoor advocate would be never immersed in the outdoors at all. We'd lose valuable advocacy resources in the future. Yeah, it's crowded, but so's everywhere else.

[Allison]

[Quark]

[Allison]

I think the permit system is a fine idea. I also think it's unfortunate that the LWP is part of the Enchantment zone--the reason being that the E zone proper is the most sought-after area of all of the zones, and the LWP is the least visited...so if you want to go to this more remote area, you're up against all the folks who want permits for the Enchantment zone and who are more than likely not camping in the LWP. Hope that clears it up. It's just a minor nit with the way the lines were drawn is all.

[Tom]

I'm not sure I like it. First of all, unless I'm missing something, you can't camp at Ingalls today so I'm not sure what a permit system for Ingalls would accomplish, unless they are going to limit dayhikers. If they limit camping in Headlight Basin more folks will just dayhike to Ingalls - granted it might limit impact in Headlight Basin, but I don't recall it being that chewed up the last time I was there. Compare to the Enchantments where it's too far for most folks to dayhike in - there I can buy the argument that permits limit traffic and impact. I'd rather see them impose hefty fines on people who break the rules before a permit system. For example, post a $500 fine at the trailhead for bringing fido and I bet you will solve the dog problem.

[Quark]

They're not talking about Ingalls Lake but the Ingalls area in general. Beyond the lake (if you're coming from Ingalls Pass) where there is no camping allowed, and toward 4th Creek Trail is a huge expanse of meadow. But that's not overrun by any stretch of the imagination. I don't recall Headlight Basin to be worn out, either. Camping there seems to me, at least, to be more popular during larch season, and at that is only for a few weeks, and mainly thwarted due to high winds and icy-cold weather.

[Tom]

Hmm, well, I never understood why Eightmile, Caroline, or Stuart required permits either. Seems like overkill to me. I assume Ingalls is managed by the same ranger district, so perhaps not a surprise. Maybe they have good reasons, but I'd like to see more rationale than just "that area is way overused on weekends".

[Quark]

Enchantments are Leavenworth Ranger district, Ingalls is Wenatchee Ranger District. Maybe Wenatchee is jealous and they want a permit system in their district too.

[Damian]