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Ski
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PostTue Feb 28, 2017 10:37 pm 
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Thanks for the laugh.
I guess accusing individuals of being on the payrolls for some imaginary Darth-Vaderish conspiracy isn't "ad hom", right?

lol.gif

BTW: the offer of $100.00 cash per name of each individual for whom you can provide proof of their being "paid posters" is still open.

oh yeah.. almost forgot:
You're still just as wrong about courts or legislators redefining definitions of standard terms in the English language as you were about accusing members of being paid by outside interest groups to post here.
Sorry you can't bring yourself to admit it and offer an apology for such an outrageous false accusation.

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treeswarper
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PostWed Mar 01, 2017 7:26 am 
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Uhhh, I feel the need to defend an industry when so many of my neighbors and friends depend on it for a living and so much disinformation is spewed out by some on this site.  Can it be that after working for decades, and living in the woods and small communities just might give me a different point of view?  That I actually know what happens ON THE GROUND?

We all make negative impacts on the environment.  At least my area knows how to mitigate those impacts and the knowledge to keep on going.  It's called being sustainable and it works.

Now, let's take this thread back from the lawyers.  Those of you who are actually interested in contributingg instead of droning on about the meaning of words might want to look up the various trail maintenance organizations.  Training begins in the spring and classes fill up quickly.  The PCTA (Pacific Crest Trail Assoc.) probably has something on line already and they have some good weekend classes on erosion control, logging out trails, brushing, etc.

Go be productive.

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Ulysses
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PostSun Mar 05, 2017 11:45 pm 
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I'm coming late into this discussion. It seems like Rod and treeswarper are the only ones that actually know something about chainsaws and trails maintenance. It's frustrating seeing people speak about this when they don't know the first thing about it.


Quote:
"Yes, I also know people/outfitters/guides/wilderness users that would do the work for free, IF THEY WERE ALLOWED TO DO SO WITHOUT FEAR OF REPRISAL.  So we could essentially not only get the trails opened, we could get the job done for much less money, by professionals that would actually enjoy taking their pack animals into the wilderness and spending their time opening trails.  Backcountry Horsemen do this on their own dime all the time, in areas where chain saws are allowed."

One of the problems, a big problem, is that most of these people don't have the knowledge and skill to the job that professionals have. Some do, but most don't. While we want quality work, the most important thing besides that is safety. It's easy to get hurt or killed if you're incompetent when you're bucking a big mess of blow down, or using rigging, or hell even using an axe.

Regarding the efficiency issue. Crosscuts don't even begin to compare to using a chainsaw. I'd like to see some of the people here that are complaining about chainsaw use go backpacking on the trails after a few years without any maintenance because crews can't get to all the work. For reference last season on a ONE MILE section of trail we cleared there were 127 trees down. Another spot in about  1/8th of a mile there were over 70 trees. All of these trees came down in one winter. Now imagine that multiplied over years and many miles. Sure if could get done with crosscuts but we'd need ten times the number of personnel and the funding - all of which are severely lacking. People also seem to forget or just don't know, clearing the blow down is just the first step. Once the trees are bucked out there is an endless amount of other trail work to get done.

Quote:
"Your supply of darn-close-to-interesting information about chainsaws is apparently inexhaustible."

Wow. If you use the trails than you should care about what goes into the construction and maintenance of them.

Quote:
"Can we as a society live with one week of saw use in the wilderness?"

These sort of comments tell me you have no understanding of chainsaw use and trails maintenance. What is going to be accomplished in one week of work? You know it's possible to spend an entire week in ONE spot on a trail if the damage/blowdown is bad/complex enough.

Regarding chainsaws and rangers as mentioned early. Those two words don't go together.
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IdahoHyker
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PostFri Dec 28, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
These sort of comments tell me you have no understanding of chainsaw use and trails maintenance. What is going to be accomplished in one week of work? You know it's possible to spend an entire week in ONE spot on a trail if the damage/blowdown is bad/complex enough.

Ulysses, you have raised the question, so I will ask you, "What is your understanding of chainsaw  use and trails maintenance?"  Then I'll ask a few more questions:  1)  Will "more" be accomplished in a week with or/without a chainsaw?  2)  If it is possible to spend an entire week in ONE spot on a trail if the damage/blowdown is bad/complex enough, Will it take less than an entire week without a chainsaw? and 3)  Would you be agreeable for allowing the use of chainsaws for one week in Wilderness Areas each year?
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IdahoHyker
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PostFri Dec 28, 2018 5:16 pm 
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I do like this discussion and believe it a worthy topic.  With the purpose of full disclosure, I want to say that I am an advocate of "limited", "restricted", use of chainsaws in Wilderness to aid in trail maintenance.  I am not an advocate of indiscriminate use of chainsaws in Wilderness.  I think this discussion shows that 1)  The Wilderness Act provides for limited exceptions for motorized use 2)  The governing Agencies can and do make exceptions.

Since this thread began Congress passed the "National Forest System Trails Stewardship Act".  In that Act, Congress stated: Sec. 2(3): Findings:  Congress finds as follows:  The lack of maintenance on National forest System trails threatens access to public lands, and may cause increased environmental damage, threaten public safety, and increase future maintenance costs."  In a "National Strategy for a Sustainable Trail System", USFS Chief Thomas L. Tidwell stated:  "...we...are seeking..new solutions."  And, "...the time for bold solutions is now."

I am not advocating the Wilderness Act be trashed, nor, that motorized use be allowed without restrictions.  We have used motorized equipment in Wilderness without falling off that slippery slope and the Agencies will always have the power to discontinue use of motorized equipment.

Given Congress' statements, perhaps the USFS could take a look at their policy and allow some limited motorized use.  Once the "backlog" of maintenance is caught up, the motorized use could then be easily discontinued.  Power saws are used where they are allowed because they are more efficient.  I say we should use them for one week a year for a few years.
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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 28, 2018 6:07 pm 
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I have only been out a few days as a volunteer working on trails.  I am familiar with chainsaw work, as I sometimes worked and got paid to help cut out roads after storms had knocked down trees. 

Crosscut saws are time consuming to me.  You have to prepare the tree--knock off the bark, dig below, set one of those dohickys in that help with underbucking and for me the worst thing was fear of dulling the saw.  I found myself thinking how much quicker I could go if I had my chainsaw.  I asked a bit and others on that particular crew said they had the same thoughts. 

The only good thing, in my mind is that the gear that has to be packed in is lighter.  No fuel, oil, extra chains, plugs etc.  No chaps or earplugs. 

I'm not sold on what some people think that crosscuts are safer.  You can do the same stupid stuff with them--the tree is going to give a jump and break no matter what saw you are using if you screw up.  Sometimes a chainsaw can let you pour some speed to it and power through one of those Oh Excrement moments.  Not always though. 

The dulling of the saw frightens me.  It is instilled in you during training and during work that to dull a crosscut is a major no no.  Not many can sharpen one well.  On the chainsaw side of things, I can freehand file my chain and get it to throwing chips pretty easily.  No fear there for me. 

I've been through the saw certification on both.   Got "B" certified as a bucker on the chainsaw and A on the crosscut, which I let lapse. 


Here is a picture I took of what a tree did when cut wrong by a firewood cutter.  They were cutting when I went by, then they were no where to be found on my way back.  I saw no blood.
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Brian R
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PostFri Dec 28, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Hand augers and dynamite are not "mechanized." A valid alternative if a handful of radicals manage to litigate chainsaws off the trail maintenance schedule.
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RumiDude
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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 2:35 am 
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Brian R wrote:
Hand augers and dynamite are not "mechanized."

A few years back I came across a WTA group using explosives to clear some huge trees from off the PCT in the Glacier Peak Wilderness. I believe Kim Brown was on one of those crews.

Rumi

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treeswarper
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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 8:20 am 
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Explosives use requires a lot of paperwork--that's according to road building people.  I think that paperwork equates to a lot of time, training and certifications about secure storage and stuff.

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Brian R
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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 10:52 am 
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I have no problem with chainsaws being used to clear trails.  But if certain groups are standing in the way of access using misinterpretations of a 5-1/2 page Act of Congress from 1964, well, I say let's just accept that--and use explosives instead.

https://www.pcta.org/2017/blasting-traditional-tool-pct-53057/
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Kim Brown
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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 1:59 pm 
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I've been on a couple of blasting projects - I did a trip report on a blast on the new portion of the PCT in the Suiattle watershed a few years ago. It was fun, from a lay person's position.

I am no expert, only having been on two blasting tours, but on those trips I observed that blasting is tedious, time consuming, requires trail closures, usually requires packstring coordination,  is weather dependent and requires more than 3 crew (I don't know what the required minimum is ).

Obtaining the materials is time-consuming as well. Blasting is not suitable for general logging out, but is a good technique for occasional projects (including some logout projects - the first blasting project I was on was a shattered cedar on the Whitechuck trail).

Wilderness management interpretation is done  by precedent and litigation, not legislation, so interpretation is often at the capricious whim or sound wisdom of a judge.

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Ski
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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 2:16 pm 
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^ Obviously regulations and practices regarding blasting must vary from one area to another:

Coming down off the peak of Bishop Ridge (Bishop Ridge Trail #272) one morning, I thought I heard gunfire close by.
It scared the hell out of me, and I yelled a few times. After a little more noise, it stopped and I kept walking.
About a half a mile down the trail I came upon two old boys, both wearing hard hats, who had ridden up the trail on "Tote Goats" to do a little blasting work on the trail.
There was no trail closure, no flag tape, no warning signs, or anything along that line at all. Just two grizzled old guys who seemed to be having the time of their lives blowing up stuff out in the woods.

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RumiDude
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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Ski wrote:
There was no trail closure, no flag tape, no warning signs, or anything along that line at all. Just two grizzled old guys who seemed to be having the time of their lives blowing up stuff out in the woods.

Sorry about that. I told my buddy we should at the very least yell out "fire in the hole", but he said "screw 'em" and lit the fuse anyway.

Rumi~the dynamite~Dude

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Kim Brown
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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Pretty sure that's not protocol. Any blasting should require lookouts to close the trail a quarter mile each side of the project at the required stage of the set up. I can't imagine an agency blasting with no site warning or site closure. Flying stones, rock chips, etc. traveling at a pretty good clip can whack the sh## out of a hiker. The lawyers would have a field day.

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PostSat Dec 29, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Quote:
Sorry about that. I told my buddy we should at the very least yell out "fire in the hole", but he said "screw 'em" and lit the fuse anyway.

Rumi~the dynamite~Dude

I got fired from yelling "fire in the hole." My voice isn't loud enough. Surprised the hell out of me. I've never been told that before. It's usually the opposite.

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