[Dave Workman]

It's Friday night, I'm sitting here waiting to pick up my kid (he's covering a football game...he's a sports writer for the little weekly where I got my start and he doesn't own a car) and I don't hit the trail until zero dark thirty... And so it occurs to me. I've cruised through the forum and have not happened upon a thread that discusses boot care. This is an important matter to me, because boots are a major investment...the good ones, anyway. And wherever we travel on this site, it's by foot. I've been wearing the same pair of hiking/hunting boots with good Vibram soles (the second set!!) for the past 20-plus years. They still shed water like waxed linen and wool, they are not rotted anywhere and there's a reason. First day I got them (out of a Sears catalog, mind you!) I heated up some Neatsfoot oil and pretty much gave them a bath in the stuff. I waited a week or so, and applied another good dose of Neatsfoot. And every year since then, it's been Neatsfoot oil and on occasion, Snow Seal. About three years ago, I refinished them with deep brown oil dye, followed by another app. of Neatsfoot. And I rubbed in about a half tin of Kiwi dark brown shoe wax. Now, admittedly I don't wear these every day, but when they ARE on my feet, they go in some pretty crummy places in varying conditions, from dusty/hot to wet, damp, snowy and bone-chilling cold. I wear them when falling trees for firewood, also. How long have your boots lasted?

[Dante]

Boot care is important, no doubt, but it will only help so much if you apply it to lower-quality boots. One trick I picked up long ago is applying a protectant (currently SeamGrip) to all exposed stitching. I did that with my Asolo FSN 95 GTXs, and kept them clean and conditioned with the products Asolo recommended, but by the time the soles went (after only 2 seasons of not-so-frequent use) the uppers were too shot to resole. With proper care, I've always gotten many many years out of good quality leather boots. For me the choice is (1) good quality leather boots for heavy-duty (heavy loads and/or off-trail) and (2) cheap light hikers from Big-5 or sneakers for light-duty use.

[salish]

I have always enjoyed this topic because there are so many variations, including home-brew recipes, for real leather hiking boots. I've used the old Hubberds Shoe Grease, Mink Oil, Sno-Seal, Danner grease, etc. For the past couple of years I've been using Montana Pitch Blend on my Alico Guides and I've been pretty happy with the results http://www.mtpitchblend.com/ I may try the Obenaufs' Heavy Duty LP. An Dante, great idea on applying a protectant on the exposed stitches. I've always just applied the same goo as on the leather. Good idea.

[Dante]

I enjoy this topic, too, but suspect most of us are members of the over-40 set who still remember when footwear was a relatively expensive investment that had to be cared for. I'm not sure how relevant the topic is to consumers of imported low-cost "disposable" footwear, which to be honest will suffice for most outdoor recreation. Just look at the through-hikers who hike in running shoes until the EVA gives out. That just leaves a few dinosaurs who travel off trail frequently and don't like buying new boots every year or two

[Dave Workman]

Well, just out of curiosity, I checked and the boots that have lasted me more than 20 yrs were made in Korea...presumably by Koreans...and I would't even begin to guess at their mileage. Dante is right..the "over 40" set (oh, if I could only see 40 again...the life's choices that I might make differently!) remembers Hubberd's, Sno Seal, neatsfoot and all that other good stuff. A lot of it turned out to actually be not so good for leather. Ass for "disposable" foot gear of the "new generation," they can have it, and welcome. When I'm in the back country, I want something that won't fail because it can't fail. Not there, not ever. A quality boot is a very good investment. A POS pair of boots with the foamy lining, well, they're okay for maybe walking around the neighborhood or the mall, but I would not trust my tootsies to them a mile up from the trailhead, or, as is usually my case, a mile back in the boonies from where I pitched my camp, and there are no trails. Thx Dante..for putting this in perspective.

[overmywaders]

Dave W., Although we've covered this ground before it doesn't hurt to mention it again. The "disposal boots" are an example, actually a fine example, of planned obsolescence. The large areas of unnecessary stitching (all seams to leak and chafe on rocks), the glued mid-sole to tear free, the Gore-tex liner to keep your feet hot and, once dirty, fail in its duty to keep them dry, the fact that many cannot be re-soled -- all of these are elements of good marketing and planning on the part of soul-less footwear manufacturers. The following I found in an old post

[Stones]

[salish]

If you guys ever come to a nwhikers social I'd love to see your Galibier boots. I remember them from the 70's, but they were strictly for climbers, and that wasn't me. I do still have my old kastingers and the newer Alico Guides. At the risk of being seen as a super-geek, I'm trying to build a database, complete with photos, of heavy leather hiking and mountaineering boots from the 1950's-1990's. So far I've got samples of Raichle, Kastinger, Pivetta, Galibier/Richard Pontvert, Lowa, Fabiano/Scarpa, Asolo, Vasque and several "unknowns". These are all stitch-down Norwegian welt type boots. What got me interested in this is that there were so many variations of each companys's model/make over the years, and those made for outdoor retailers such as EMS and Bean. I'm a fly fisherman who collects and fishes older bamboo fly rods (and new ones) and I see some similarities in this interest; fine handcrafted tools made by hand (mostly) from organic materials (mostly) from individuals or companies that no longer exist. Reed knows exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm attaching two photos of Galibier boots and I'd appreicate it if you (Ski & Stones) could take a look at them and let me know if they are described accurately. Thanks, Cliff ps - I still have a good pair of Raichle Rotondo's in 9.5 Wide for sale Galibier Makalu boots (also labeled as Richard Ponvert in collar)

Galibier Super Guides

[Stones]

Galibier Vercors

I pulled my old Galibiers out of the closet. Unfortunately, I noticed white mildewy spots on the surface, something that seems to happen to anything remotely organic stored down in the daylight basement. Curse this climate! Actually, I think these were are Vercors model, not the Super Guides. Nonetheless, Galibier made some bad ass boots, built to last. The original soles were a Galibier brand. I had the boots resoled by a cobbler in Alta Loma, California. The cobbler was a Chinese gentleman who had a mountaineering background. I think he enjoyed working on these instead of mundane everday shoes. He did a great job. I really need to get out and put some crampons on again.

[overmywaders]

salish, Here are a few more Pivetta pics for you.

You'll notice the first pic has hooks and eyelets, whereas the other two have only eyelets.

[salish]

Stones, Reed & Ski, thank you. Great pics! Thanks for taking the time to photo them. Stones: what vintage are your Vercors? When did you purchase them? Reed: ditto with your Pivetta's, and do you know what models they are? They look to be at least 20 years old??? Ski: They remind me of my Alico Guides, only much more stout (http://www.alicosport.it/paginaguide.htm) Thanks. I appreciate the details and pics! Cliff

[overmywaders]

Cliff, The Pivettas evolved a bit over the years. All Pivettas had a few common elements -- superb workmanship, the finest materials, a great range of widths, and Littleway construction, which allowed for good edging. The Pivetta 8 style which I wore for many, many years (and still wear occasionally) were from the mid-seventies, full steel shank, rough-out brown full-grain leather, leather lined, thick leather midsole, D-rings and hooks, and Montagna Bloc Vibram sole. This was their stiffest model next to the Eiger which Colin Fletcher popularized. The Eiger was black, smooth-out full-grain leather, eyelets only, and very stiff in the sole (also Montagna Bloc Vibram, IIRC) -- an expedition hiking boot. Very serious. The Pivetta 5 was lighter than the 8, smooth-out brown full-grain upper, eyelets (some, I believe, had hooks, too), and Montagna Bloc Vibram sole. See the last two pics I sent for a Pivetta 5. The Muir Trail was the lightweight Pivetta. They were grey/black suede (split-grain), with a short shank, a light gray leather lining, and Roccia Bloc Vibram sole. I have a later model of the Muir Trail that I wear every day. It does not have the single piece upper of all other Pivettas and would not be appropriate for scrambling but it saves my feet on the concrete floors for 7 hours a day, and that with no other insole than the hard leather that was standard. I think this model was aimed at the college crowd. See below:

The Pivettas were imported by Donner Mountain Corporation (hence the often seen "Pivetta for DMC" label on the tongue) until the mid-eighties when DMC was purchased by Rockport and the Pivetta line was allowed to lapse.

[Dante]

Mmmmm Boooot Porn... FWIW, Dave Page has told Backpacker Joe that he (Page) thinks the factory built (by Meindl) Limmers are better built than the custom ones. That reminds me, has anyone tried the Meindl-built boots Cabelas sells? I bet the materials and workmanship are top-notch. BTW, BPJ has promised to tell us when Alabama Outdoors has their annual Limmer Sale. Last year, I picked up a pair of Limmer Lightweights for $165. I've broken them in, but so far have been able to resist the temptation to use them while I try to wear out my Chaco Beckwiths. BPJ got a pair of Limmer Ultralights last year, which he used on our trip to Hinman Lake.

[Backpacker Joe]

I use the Limmer boot care kit I bought after I recieved my Ultra Lights. It didnt come with any soap, but I still have some that I bought years ago. I wash my boots on the outside, rinse them on the inside then let them dry with light newspaper on the inside. Then I use the stuff in the care kit on the boots. Dont let your boots stay untakencareof for the whole winter whatever you do.

[jenjen]

I noticed on Limmer's site that their women's sizes stop at 10. Is this true as well for their custom boots? I remember the sturdy boots you all are talking about, my Dad is still wearing his. Unfortunately, I grew out of mine in college. And I've been putting up with the thin leather uppers and lousy glue that are standard in typical hiking boots now. After 5 years of normal use, the things just start falling apart. Even with keeping them clean and conditioned. I'd love to get another pair of boots that will live long enough to become old friends. But I wear a women's 10.5 AA. I can't go with a man's boot, my feet are too narrow and low volume. Just how custom a boot does Limmer make? I'm willing to pay for a really good boot.