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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 05, 2006 9:48 pm 
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Global warming deniers are in the same category as holocaust deniers. and flat earth enthusiasts. The glaciers will not be back in our lifetimes.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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tofu on toast hiker
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PostThu Oct 05, 2006 11:02 pm 
the more you study the more you forget the more you forget t
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Highker wrote:
scm007 wrote:
I've come to the conconclusion that humanity doesn't have the willpower to stop, or at least try to stop the global warming. As such, I have decided to stop worrying about it.

While I can appreciate that attitude, another approach is thinking of future generations. I appreciate that past generations protected some of our lands. That was not practical in previous centuries in other lands. Cars are cleaner and we don't choke on exhaust while bike riding.  These things are because enough people cared to make a difference. We should think ahead, not purely of the present.

And BPJ, there are two possibilities. Suppose we try to reduce global warming.  If humans are not a factor, then we waste less energy, which is better for future generations. If humans are a factor, we mitigate it. What's wrong with either approach? Wasting energy seems short-sighted and selfish. Look at all the cedar that is gone, just for roofing and fences in the last century. What if there had been less wasteful manufacturing back then? Would we have more cedar trees to enjoy?

Highker, I like your analysis.   Reducing energy waste is a good thing, once we identify where the waste is, and there are always plenty of people with extra time on their hands who can sit down and spend alot of time identifying where the energy is being wasted and then right a big report on where humanity has gone astray.    Once we have spent the time figuring out where the energy is being wasted, we can then spend some time developing ways to save it.  Ultimately we get a cleaner environment, unless Krakatoa or Rainier explodes in the meantime.  Then we are up to our ashes in volcanic dust.

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Allison
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PostThu Oct 05, 2006 11:26 pm 
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"Some" people are to damn certain of themselves that humans are the cause for this.

Yes, "some", as in the entire scientific community worldwide.

Not that they know what they are talking about or anything. doof.gif
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Tom
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PostThu Oct 05, 2006 11:56 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Global warming deniers are in the same category as holocaust deniers...

Only 2 pages and Godwin's Law is invoked. dance.gif
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 12:37 am 
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philfort wrote:
Backpacker Joe wrote:
There are as many scientists who disagree in global warming as who agree with it.

A climate scientist I know said there is near complete consenus among peers that there is human caused global warming.  Your favorite media outlet may disagree.

Backpacker Joe wrote:

  Oh, and that hole in the ozone layer, it's repairing itself and shrinking.

...thanks to the banning of CFC's 20 years ago.

there was also a consensus the earth was flat, that continents don't move, and that floods never scoured E Wa. Given the extremely and obviously checkered past of 'consensus' in declaring fact, declaring consensus = proof for the objective physical world isn't exactly the smartest thing to hang your hat on.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 12:52 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Global warming deniers are in the same category as holocaust deniers. and flat earth enthusiasts. The glaciers will not be back in our lifetimes.

Not really. The holocaust was a physical event which has ample falsifiability, and was thus testable as a whole... whereas human caused warming as a cohesive whole, has none, and is not. All the arguments come down to resting upon assumptions of an unknowable, unmeasurable 'normal' temperatue which cannot actually be empirically provided as a control.

personally, i'd rather chat about ice and it's recession from a more generic perspective. but if there are going to be claims made about other aspects of this issue as well, self control over which is seemingly nearly impossible for some (on both sides, let it be noted!......  i'm willing to go with making sure more than one monolithic (note that this is the claim made, after all "consensus", right? ) viewpoint is presented.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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jimmymac
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 7:51 am 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
The glaciers will not be back in our lifetimes.

That's why I'm thankful for the mini ice age that interrupted global warming about the time of the coal-fired steam age. Without those years of global cooling, the Cascade glaciers might have been gone before my birth.

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"Profound serenity is the product of unfaltering Trust and heightened vulnerability."
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jbsimm2
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 7:53 am 
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marylou wrote:
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"Some" people are to damn certain of themselves that humans are the cause for this.

Yes, "some", as in the entire scientific community worldwide.

Not that they know what they are talking about or anything. doof.gif

That is not true, there is no credible scientific studies on this matter, that havn't been even more credibly refuted.

Global warming doesn't exsist no matter how much some people want it to!

Who caused the global warming that ended the ice age? must of been George Bush huh?
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kleet
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 7:55 am 
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Our nice little discussion on glaciers is rapidly heading for the toilet. Please keep the tone respectful or expect this topic to be locked.

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MtnGoat
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 8:00 am 
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Thank you for the warning instead of just locking the thread.

For some reason this happens every darned time, if it ain't one side of the fence it's the other! IF the science must be discussed, let's leave the jabs out at least.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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jbsimm2
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WWLD?
PostFri Oct 06, 2006 8:08 am 
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Sorry, you're right my fault. It just burns me up when people state opinion as fact. won't happen again, I promise.
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salish
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 8:19 am 
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I first saw the Hinman glacier around 1975, then after a Rip Van Winkle like absence of twenty five years I saw it again around 2000. It was weird to see the changes. Very dramatic.

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GeoTom
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 8:49 am 
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A timely article in today's Seattle Times.

Remember, if you disagree, attack the message, not the messenger (me).

Edited to add: After posting the link I realized that the thread started out about glaciers specifically. Sorry for any thread drift.

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scm007
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 11:33 am 
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"there was also a consensus the earth was flat, that continents don't move, and that floods never scoured E Wa. Given the extremely and obviously checkered past of 'consensus' in declaring fact, declaring consensus = proof for the objective physical world isn't exactly the smartest thing to hang your hat on."

Neither is the contrapositive to that statement, that since scientific consensus has been wrong in the past, it must be wrong now. Or should at least be considered dubious at best.

The global warming deniers out there introduce unwarranted amounts of skepticism in what is fairly sound data. You realize that science is not exact don't you? No data set in the real world is going to be perfect, but that doesn't mean that it has no relevance or information in it.

So I ask you this, what is the most logical conclusion to be drawn from the data? A.) The measurement techniques used are not accurate enough. B.) There is some natural cause to the global warming (which no one can quantify). C.) That the rise in CO2 concentrations through the burning of fossil fuels is increasing global temperatures via the greenhouse effect.

Well I'm going to tell you that A.) is false (do some research about the data if you don't believe me). As for B, one could say that for ANY conculsion drawn from ANY experiment EVER. Now in the case of global climate, yes it is a very complicated mechanism in which not all of the variables are/can be understood but we can still measure the output of global temperature and input of human CO2 emission. They may not be causual, but what isn't it logical that they are?

Just so you know, we will NEVER be able to prove a relation between human CO2 burning and global temperature rise, as there are unknown variables which 'could' cause the temperature increase.

I suggest that everyone look at the data, rather than some spindoctor's analysis of it (on both sides). Decide for yourself what is the most logical conclusion and the risk you find acceptable.
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scm007
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PostFri Oct 06, 2006 11:44 am 
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Backpacker Joe wrote:
When Krakatoa went up it put more crap into the atmosphere than all the cars have/will forever!  And that was just one volcano.... We haven't had the technology to study this place long enough to be sure of any of this theory.

To address your first statement. Huge volcanic eruptions like that of Krakatoa have a cooling effect as all of the soot emitted partially blocks out the sun.

To address your second statment. Why do we not have enough data? Do we need 25 data points, 50, 100, 1000000? You can always say "not enough data" even when it is fairly obvious that there is. There is error in any data analysis. I say that it is better to error on the side of caution and start researching alternative energy methods, ways to reduce the CO2 amount in the atmosphere, etc.

Actually your right, screw it, lets just drill the ANWR and see what happens. Models are only good for predicting what has already happened right?

P.S. If I didn't make myself clear before then. No one is arguing that climate changes naturally here on earth. But considering the physics, dumping billions of tons of CO2 into the earth's atmosphere is going to have some effect, and it's not going to be cooling.
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