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Tvashtar
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 7:15 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Trees are not considered to be fossil fuel. Coal and Oil have much older carbon with no C14 or decay products. Trees are pretty much Carbon neutral.

Yes, I was referring to the burning of fossil fuels.  I assumed most readers would interpret it that way, since carbon emissions have spiked so dramatically since we started burning them instead of wood.

Burning wood is only carbon neutral if you replace trees as fast as you use them (ie, the trees 'breath in' the CO2 from burning).  So far, that has not been the case.

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"We are, all of us, in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 7:55 pm 
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Are you certain this is the case? From what I understand, we are very close to having just as many trees as we started with.. in the US, anyway. The battles over trees are usually over old growth these days, not the total amount cut or planted... isn't this right?

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Mtn Dog
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 8:09 pm 
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Tvashtar wrote:
Any publication that cites this as a reason to doubt human caused global warming should be treated with a great deal of suspicion.  There are more credible publications with better journalistic integrity out there, to be sure.

Don't stop there!  I'm naturally skeptical about that and so much more because it seems the media will broadcast all kinds of crazy findings that turn out to be nothing more than junk science down the road.  The new Ice Age, Cold Fusion, poor health effects from high tension powerlines and cell phones, the Adkins Diet, the list goes on and on.  We are big on "findings" and short on real science and verified research to back it up.  I grew up next to the Hanford Site in eastern Washington.  To this day it is practically embarrassing how 'nuclear illiterate' the average U.S. citizen is.  I grew tired of the junk science hysteria that surrounded that industry when I was in college.  Eliminating CO2 emissions from coal and oil fired power plants is simple, go nuclear.

The latest I've heard is that proponents of human caused global warming have now suggested that Nuremberg style trials be held for any scientist who still disagrees with their claims.  Now isn't that rational!  shakehead.gif  So it's very easy for me to have a problem with something that should speak for itself but proponents won't even give the information the chance for this to happen.  I do agree with you that glacial ice layers could be analyzed going back in age just like rings on a tree.  From each layer trapped air pockets would verify the molecular composition of the atmosphere.  The very latest adds an even stranger twist to the equation Cosmic rays contribute to global warming

On another note, your post supports the claim that GW is the cause of human action but you've provided no information whatsoever as to any solution to the problem.  I fail to understand why scientists, who have put so much into verifying how horrible this condition supposedly is, have not also invested their time and energy into solutions - that's really what scientists do!  Nobody makes any money preaching doom and gloom so what exactly is their motivation?  Also, ozone can be produced in the laboratory, albeit at quite an expense; but given the choice between that and extinction I think it's something we can find a way to afford.  Ozone is also produced by the sun and by lightning naturally.  CO2 can be converted into oxygen as well, again at some trouble and expense.  But even in the eyes of the GW community that is something we can well afford if the alternative is annihilation of the species.

And here's my biggest bewilderment.  I spent Tuesday with my wife and daughter at Rainy Pass hiking to Rainy Lake.  The Lyall Glacier on the north face of Frisco Mountain is currently only remnants of its former self and maybe only half the size of the glacier shown on the topo maps.  But on the way to the North Cascades in Darrington Whitehorse Mountain has tons of snow and ice all over its northern slopes even now, in mid-October.  I can't remember ever seeing that much snow on that peak any time of the year.  So I'm wondering if local anomalies also play a part in the perception of global warming.

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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 8:21 pm 
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Sorry, scientists do not usually provide solutions that is engineers job.

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Mtn Dog
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 8:47 pm 
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Engineers work in Applied Sciences.  Scientists perform research.  You want to tell cancer researchers that their not working towards a cure because they're not engineers, MC?

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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 8:59 pm 
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Most cancer researchers are finding information which may lead to a cure. This could include discovery of a genetic vulnerability in the cancer genome etc. The cure if chemical will be made by chemists which is engineering on an atomic scale.

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Tom
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 9:04 pm 
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Mtn Dog, just drove by Whitehorse today and had the exact opposite reaction.  Looks very barren.  I've never seen it with less snow.

For the sake of argument, let's assume the warming is human caused.  Other than argue about it, is there much we can do about it?  If so, at what cost?
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 9:16 pm 
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There is actually quite a lot that can be done. the easiest ts probably power as the plants are larger. A greater emphasis on nukes over coal is at least a short term help. Wind and hydro power are another. Greater efficency leads to lower emissions. If resources devoted to "fightin terrism" were devoted to this problem it would be a step in the right direction. costal flooding for example will be incredably expensive. We have the best minds in the world and most of the technology is already here.

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scm007
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 9:20 pm 
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OK, well it is useless to argue about this, and as it is just causing anomosity (sp?) on this site, I say that we can agree to disagree. However, I believe that most people need to learn more about the data, the unknowns, and the arguments before trying to post in a discussion such as this. I have been guilty of this in the past, and will probably in the future, and it really distracts from the core discussion taking place.

Also, personal attacks (mine included) really take away from someone's credibility. Sorry to all of those who might have taken what I said as deragatory.
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Backpacker Joe
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 9:37 pm 
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Having worked in the Nuclear industry for 15 years I can attest to what Mal is saying.  It would help to replace dirty power generation with clean power generation.  That said it isn't going to happen!  Nuclear power isn't politically correct!  [political diatribe removed by moderator]  Also, IF this trend is human caused, and I'm not certain it is, considering how fast China and India are developing, things are going to get a hell of a lot worse before they get better!!!

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 9:50 pm 
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I do not think the problem with nukes was really political correctness although that was a factor. In my mind the real problem was economic. In the US each plant was a unique design. This was great for nuclear engineers but not so great for the industry. In europe there were only a few standardized designs which was far more economical. China and india are the upcoming problem china for example is building many coal plants which will use low grade australian coal, it is hard to imagine a more efficient CO2 generator. frown.gif

BTW when I was in OZ I used their coal and it was krap.

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Mtn Dog
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 11:32 pm 
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Malachai Constant wrote:
Most cancer researchers are finding information which may lead to a cure. This could include discovery of a genetic vulnerability in the cancer genome etc. The cure if chemical will be made by chemists which is engineering on an atomic scale.

Semantics at best.  Chemists are scientists, Chemical Engineers are engineers.  Building a bridge is engineering.  The Statics, Dynamics, Mechanics of Materials, Structural Analysis, and other aspects of the design are science.  Civil Engineering is the applied science.

So who has done what so far in their personal lives to help abate the effects of global warming, regardless of the cause?

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Mtn Dog
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 11:35 pm 
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Tom wrote:
Mtn Dog, just drove by Whitehorse today and had the exact opposite reaction.  Looks very barren.  I've never seen it with less snow.

Really?  Now I wish I'd taken a picture.  It is October afterall.  Are the snowfields around Iceberg Lake and Big Snow Mountain typical in the fall at 5,000 and 6,000' in elevation?  I found that noteworthy but have never been in the MFK area before to compare to past years.

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Tom
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PostThu Oct 12, 2006 11:43 pm 
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Yes.  Really.  Glaciers are melting.  Is anyone questioning that?
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banzaimf
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PostFri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am 
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I believe, that on Rainier, the core temp of the mountain has been rising for a while from volcanic activity. Active volcanoes are bad indicators IMO.

IIRC,the largest greenhouse gas emitter in the state for 2005 was St Helens.
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