[Allison]

The concept of 'preserving the natural legacy' puts preservation above recreation. Even I know that, and I grew up on timber money. This is a fat stinkin' truckload of crap:

[Conrad]

And now to continue Dave's discussion of my elitism:

[Quark]

Take this thread with these few people and this wide range of opinions and delivery panache, for lack of other words to call it - multiply it by thousands (or six, depending upon if you're at a public hearing concerning Arizona or one in western Washington), and that's what the FS has to deal with everyday; even within their own organization. No wonder it's a screwed up operation.

[Conrad]

Yeah, but back to Dave hurting my feelings:

[Dayhike Mike]

[Allison]

[Dave Workman]

Dayhike: Conrad isn't the only one taking this personally All of this rhetoric is right out of Public Debate 101. If you don't like the message, demonize the messenger. In this case, the problem still exists, that of closing roads and thus reducing the public's access to land they all own. Think about me whatever you want, that's not going to change the problem. Doesn't alter the landscape a bit. And that comes from someone who grew up on very little money at all, so what? Those who think closing roads, using whatever excuses one can cook up, is just peachy can park at road junctions and walk. Be my guest. You have my blessing. Hike wherever you want and be damn grateful you have the ability. The one thing I've learned over the years about self-styled "preservationists" is that they seem to want to preserve everything for their own use. Everyone else is a leper to be forced outside the city walls and kept there. I really do care about people with disabilities or people whose legs can no longer carry them that far, and their access to the wild places, Marylou. Why is none of your business. If you're just trying to get my goat, you're not trying very hard.

[Dave Workman]

[Ski]

my lousy two cents worth: viewing aerial photography of western washington ( between hwy 410 and the columbia river ) makes it clear there is no shortage of forest service roads. like spiderwebs: up and down valleys, along ridgecrests, sometimes going somewhere, sometimes not. are they really all necessary? the forest service years ago was assigned the task of reducing the number of road miles, through closures and/or decommissionings, for reasons concerning both money and environmental quality. i remember some of the first public meetings during the initial scoping processes on road closure proposals in the south cascades. i was baffled by some of the arguments both for and against closures or decommissionings on some roads. i'm amazed the people at the forest service can make any sense of any of it. ( something Quark mentioned above ) there are just too dam many roads. there are roads, roads, and more roads. most of them go nowhere, other than to a landing which once hosted a skidder. why do those roads all need to remain open? for what purpose? the argument for keeping roads open for fire suppression is valid, but sometimes gets in the way of common sense. the idea that there's some vast hidden conspiracy that wants to close roads is ill-informed. the forest service closes roads for all kinds of reasons: wildlife habitat; garbage dumping; territorial disputes among mushroom pickers; etc. another point i didn't see in this thread is that the forest service is mandated to maintain roads to a certain standard. in some cases, it's just not practical with available funds to keep all roads maintained to those standards, so closure becomes the inevitable solution. is there any point in this diatribe? i don't know. but here's my view of it: kick me off this forum if you want to, but it is all about politics. for over 20 years both NFS and NPS have been treated like orphan children, left to fend for themselves, with ever-decreasing funding allocations, leading ultimately ( as workman has been banging the drum about ) to privatization of campgrounds and facilities. if you can't yet see the handwriting on the wall, wake up before you find your favorite trailhead or campground being managed and/or maintained by some private concessionaire. instead of the pointless jousting going on here in this thread, write letters to senators, congressmen, interior secretaries, agriculture secretaries, and nps and nfs land management officials. i'll never win any popularity contests up at ashford or pt. angeles, but by god, they know what i think.

[aestivate]

[MtnGoat]

Even I can appreciate their difficulties, and I commiserate as this is one of the few agencies that wether I agree with or not, deserves a lot more money. Where that should come from is a matter for the other forum, but it's true.

[touron]