Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Good News for Wild Sky
 Reply to topic
Previous :: Next Topic
Author Message
Justan
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 1041 | TRs | Pics
Justan
Member
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 10:21 am 
Pütz-in-Boots wrote:
Justan, Some answers to your questions...I have kiwi friends who live in Wellington and Brig works for one of the government ministries. I knew she's get back to me...I just didn't expect it to be this quick. Here is the text of her response. There is some very interesting information contained within. [snip] I hope everyone finds this information useful. There may be something we can glean from this that helps all parties.
Thank you very much for researching this! I am most appreciative. The time frame for events in NZ (and I haven’t had the opportunity to read it yet) suggests that this is a 20th century phenomena. Another friend said to look into the works of Sigurd F. Olson. He was one of the folks who was an advocate of the Wilderness Act. I found a web site http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/JMC/Olson/contents.htm but haven’t had time to look at it (sigh). I saw a reference to Olson’s “Wilderness Theology” on the page. Perhaps by looking into this and other elements the motivating ideology at work will help gain an understanding of the role of personal liberties when applied to public land use.

-Justan Elk
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Justan
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 1041 | TRs | Pics
Justan
Member
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 10:52 am 
Has anyone read Wilderness and the American Mind by Roderick Nash? Here's an excerpt from a review When wilderness was largely unknown, it was seen as dangerous to man, and hence, evil. When we learned how to make use of it, it became useful and pleasurable to man, and hence, good. At no point did we stop "taking it personally", and simply see it as it is -- neither good nor bad. Rarely have we ever been satisfied to look at wilderness from the point of view of its more rightful "owners" and residents -- wildlife. While we have generally ceased considering it our moral obligation to "tame" all wilderness and make it "productive" (i.e., make it serve human ends), I doubt that appealing exclusively to selfish motives (e.g. let's save wilderness as places for humans to rest and recreate) is an effective long-term strategy. (I am reminded of the definition (in 1950's humor) of a gentleman as a man who will protect a woman from every man but himself.) Doesn't the continual appeal to selfish motives simply encourage and perpetuate them? The rest of the review is here: http://www.imaja.com/as/environment/mvarticles/WildernessAmerMind.html

-Justan Elk
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
MtnGoat
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 11:01 am 
marylou wrote:
MtnGoat wrote:
my arguments are 'specious' and therefore dishonest. A nice touch...assuming false intent on the part of ones opponents.
You claim that Wilderness advocates are only in it for themselves, so who's to doubt the other side can't take the high road either? It's you who assumes the worst in human nature when people want to preserve lands in perpetuity.
I claim everyone is in 'it' for their own reasons. Unless you are somehow holding someone elses mind in your head, I fail to see how what you want isn't you wanting it. Wanting something for your own reasons is how every single thing you want is...no matter who else you may also want it for. You seem bent on taking this observation, which applies to everyone, as being directed at your position alone. But one comment that does fit your position, is the willingness to use law to exclude others from lands you want protected..and that's not assumption... it's proven by your statements. I may not agree with what you are willing to do, but i haven't claimed you are intentionally deceptive.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 11:28 am 
Justan wrote:
Thank you very much for researching this! I am most appreciative. The time frame for events in NZ (and I haven’t had the opportunity to read it yet) suggests that this is a 20th century phenomena.
It is a late 20th c idea; before that, America had the Manifest Destiny mentality regarding nature (some still do). They went through flora a fauna like locusts – note the pics of logging and hunting of the early days: men proudly standing amon their fallen bounty, tools in hand (cross-cut, or rifle). Even things like the Denny Regrade were a way Man wished to show his superiority over Nature. I learned from the FS film, “The Greatest Good,” that the idea for Wilderness was bourne from the depletion of the wolf population of a certain area. I can’t remember the man’s name; he was with the Forest Service and enjoyed hunting; his exploits helped to eradicate wolves in the area he hunted. Later, his remorse manifested in the advocacy of Wilderness.

"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate." Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 11:45 am 
Quark, you are referring to Aldo Leopold's Thinking Like A Mountain.

that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Hiker Boy
Hinking Fool



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 1569 | TRs | Pics
Location: Northern Polar Icecap
Hiker Boy
Hinking Fool
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 12:25 pm 
I wish we had designated wilderness areas up here in Canada. We do have a few protected wildlife reserves which are similar I guess but they are rare and small for the most part. It would nice to have a designation for pieces of land that come with a definite set of rules on what is or isn't allowed regarding access and development issues. You guys are so lucky!

Honey Badger Don't Care!
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
jimmymac
Zip Lock Bagger



Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3705 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lake Wittenmyer, WA
jimmymac
Zip Lock Bagger
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 12:53 pm 
Lucky that we have neighbours who can sell us lumber. clown.gif

"Profound serenity is the product of unfaltering Trust and heightened vulnerability."
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
Tom
Admin
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 2:03 pm 
joker on page 13 wrote:
Yes, though some, such as the movement Hitler led...
I was wondering how long it would take before Godwin's Law was proven once again!

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Allison
Feckless Swooner



Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 12287 | TRs | Pics
Location: putting on my Nikes before the comet comes
Allison
Feckless Swooner
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 2:11 pm 
This is such a good discussion, I hope it does not unintentionally derail.

www.allisonoutside.com follow me on Twitter! @AllisonLWoods
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Guiran
Member
Member


Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 621 | TRs | Pics
Location: University of Washington
Guiran
Member
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 2:13 pm 
Quote:
I was wondering how long it would take before Godwin's Law was proven once again!
I wanted to comment on that, but couldn't remember the name of the law. Thanks, Tom. 13 pages is a pretty solid run, though. hockeygrin.gif

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 7:34 pm 
Brian Curtis wrote:
Quark, you are referring to Aldo Leopold's Thinking Like A Mountain.
Thankss Brian. What a beautiful piece! I googled Aldo Leopold - wow, what a legacy he left! I read some of this other writings as well! Thanks!

"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate." Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
joker
seeker



Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion
joker
seeker
PostWed Nov 15, 2006 8:57 pm 
Tom wrote:
joker on page 13 wrote:
Yes, though some, such as the movement Hitler led...
I was wondering how long it would take before Godwin's Law was proven once again!
You caught me red-handed, I'm afraid. Thanks for the link - that was fun to read. Not sure this case proves it true, though, perhaps even the reverse (other than supporting the contention that the probability of such a reference approaches 1 in such long threads). The reference was not used as an insult or comparison to anyone posting here, and it certainly didn't end the thread, as it happened a few pages back. Nonetheless, I'll find other less godwinesque comparisons in the future, though... In any case, back to discussion at least slightly more related to this thread, for anyone looking to explore some of the history of environmentalism, folks have put up an interesting timeline of environmental events on wikidpedia, including mention of wildlife preserves in 200BC, and mentions of folks like Thoreau and Muir and Benjamin Franklin, so there's definitely at least some historical thought about preservation going a fair ways back, though my own read of history is that Quark is about right in terms of the main thrust of societal thought on the issue.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Justan
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 1041 | TRs | Pics
Justan
Member
PostThu Nov 16, 2006 10:14 am 
Quark wrote:
It is a late 20th c idea; before that, America had the Manifest Destiny mentality regarding nature (some still do). They went through flora a fauna like locusts – note the pics of logging and hunting of the early days: men proudly standing amon their fallen bounty, tools in hand (cross-cut, or rifle). Even things like the Denny Regrade were a way Man wished to show his superiority over Nature.
I agree with this. The nature of this country has leaned heavily towards exploitation of the environment from the time the first Europeans set foot on the land. It is something that still rings true today. In an abstract sense the conquest of nature is a consistent theme in the entire history of civilization. Yet at some point at some notable number of folk decided that some of the vast nature is worth preserving. We can look to the history of parks, particularly the national park system as an example of a trend towards preserving some areas. That our federal government picked up on this is a remarkable reflection of supporting a minority view. I did a little research and found that many nations in Europe have national parks, as was the case in Russia. I didn’t find much on wilderness areas. Perhaps other than for the US naming distinction they are the same? On the topic of parks, I came across a nice summary of the foundation of our national park system and eventually the national park service. It is an excellent and pretty brief read. I highly recommend it. Here is the prolog:
Quote:
In the early nineteenth century one of the areas of the West that received much notice was the mysterious area lying at the headwaters of the Yellowstone River. After several years of incredible stories about a land where the earth shook and smoked from underground fires and exploding waterspouts, a full scale expedition was organized in 1870 by Nathaniel Langford. The trip lasted four weeks, and though plagued by rain, snow, sickness, hunger, accidents and fatigue, the things they saw made the trip an incredible one. "We are all overwhelmed with astonishment at what we have seen," wrote Langford in his diary, "and feel that we have been near the very presence of the Almighty." While all of the members of the expedition kept journals, Langford's journal records an evening campfire chat that has become a legend.
the rest is here: http://www.nps.gov/archive/wica/National_Park_Service_History.htm But I'm still curious about the growth of wilderness areas. Does anyone know what the distinction is, from a legal point of view, between a national park and a wilderness area? The use rules appear similar. RE the film The Greatest Good often hunting a species to extinction will have a haunting effect upon hunters, but seldom does it spark remorse that extends beyond guilt. From the review, the book I mentioned above Wilderness in the American Mind explores the indifference of man in this regard. I ordered the book and will report back once I get through it.

-Justan Elk
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Justan
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 1041 | TRs | Pics
Justan
Member
PostThu Nov 16, 2006 10:18 am 
Hiker Boy wrote:
I wish we had designated wilderness areas up here in Canada. We do have a few protected wildlife reserves which are similar I guess but they are rare and small for the most part. It would nice to have a designation for pieces of land that come with a definite set of rules on what is or isn't allowed regarding access and development issues. You guys are so lucky!
Someone said that Algonquin Park in Ontario is a kind of wilderness area. Is it? Does Canada have any or many parks which might fit the criteria?

-Justan Elk
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Justan
Member
Member


Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Posts: 1041 | TRs | Pics
Justan
Member
PostThu Nov 16, 2006 10:21 am 
MtnGoat wrote:
But one comment that does fit your position, is the willingness to use law to exclude others from lands you want protected..and that's not assumption... it's proven by your statements.
Does the law you reference exclude people or certain activities?

-Justan Elk
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
 Reply to topic
Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Good News for Wild Sky
  Happy Birthday speyguy, Bandanabraids!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum