Forum Index > Trip Reports > Avalanche on McClellan Butte 12-10-06
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gyngve
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gyngve
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PostMon Dec 11, 2006 6:45 pm 
Quote:
As for beacons and all that stuff, they can lure you into going places you shouldn't be. The most lame piece of equipment I've ever seen is the Aqualung. Obviously designed by people who are optimistic, and overly confident that lack of oxygen is the only mode of death in an avalanche.
You mean Avalung. I don't carry one, but if I were an avalanche professional (like doing explosive work at a resort), I'd carry one. So yeah, I don't think they are that lame.

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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Dec 11, 2006 6:55 pm 
This was probably a sluff in the top couple of inches of new on top of the hard pack. When Mark, Moosefish, Bryan and I were at Hyak it was frozen slush that should never slide. The couple of inches of new slid on this layer and built up into a wave that could knock anyone over. One time at The Brothers we were forced of the route because warm sluffs bade a 6' wall coming down the main route where the angle was only 20 degrees or so . It is very easy to get knocked off your feet into a tree well or worse.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Nomad
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PostMon Dec 11, 2006 7:14 pm 
Dicey, Really enjoy your trip reports and want to keep seeing them in the future. Please be careful out there. Glad you all are Okay.

"Of all the fire mountains which, like beacons, once blazed along the Pacific Coast, Mount Rainier is the noblest." - John Muir "If the path be beautiful, let us not ask where it leads." - Anatole France
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gyngve
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PostMon Dec 11, 2006 7:59 pm 
X wrote:
Have you experienced an avalanche? If you had, you might not say that. I don't mean the nice fluffy ones you see in the ski movies. I mean the real ones that knock you down, toss you around, and bury you before you have a chance to think.
I've never been partially or fully buried. But you ask anyone who's been doing avy control work at a resort for twenty years, and they'll all have a story about how they've been caught, usually something they weren't expecting. Some small roll they've skied hundreds of times. The stats say that if you don't die of trauma (roughly half of all avy deaths), you basically have 15 minutes to be dug out to have a good chance at living. An avalung gives you more time. Yeah, there's the whole shizz about getting the mouthpiece in you while getting entrained. So X, do you carry a beacon, or are those too danger-promoting too?

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gyngve
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PostMon Dec 11, 2006 9:38 pm 
I'm sorry X has had a traumatic experience with an avalanche. There have been a few people have survived lengthy burials "because" of avalungs, so the equipment does have merit. There's no way of knowing if they would have skied the slope had they not worn the Avalung. Whether the cost * probability of making a difference is big enough for you to buy one is your own personal decision. My beacon rebut was incorrect because a beacon is both for rescuing and being rescued. btw -- what's your source for many people dying right after being dug out? I looked at Avy Handbook, Staynig Alive in Avy Terrain, Snow Sense, WFR, and Med for Mtneering and didn't find any mention Tremper says only 2% of avy victims will live long enough to die from hypothermia (p.236). Though It goes without saying that for avy victims to take spinal precautions and treat for hypothermia and shock.

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Hiker Boy
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PostMon Dec 11, 2006 9:55 pm 
I just bought an avalung. It may "look lame" but if I'm caught in an avalanche, trapped in a tree well or whattever, the last thing I'm going to be thinking about is something as superficial as "looks". I don't care what someone else's experiences have been...had the training and been involved in some sketchy conditions and some rescue stuff myself...my personal experience has led me to purchase one. Sounds like Dicey has had some priceless education.

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Allison
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PostMon Dec 11, 2006 11:28 pm 
Avalungs have been involved in a few avalanche burials where the buried person survived, so me for one think it's a fine idea to use one if you have one. I don't have one yet, but think they are a fine accessory to the safety gear quiver. up.gif

www.allisonoutside.com follow me on Twitter! @AllisonLWoods
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nuclear_eggset
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 12:06 am 
Wow! I'm glad to hear that you're all ok! Thank you for sharing that with us - very valuable information for the uninformed, and I hope your next trip is much less eventful. smile.gif

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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 12:32 am 
The Avilung may be of help in a few dire situations but I am afraid that for all but a few professionals such as ski patrol setting charges or guides it could be a trap. many who die in avalanches are struck by obstacles such as racks or trees. It is far better to avoid the hazard. remember we are not up there to save lives or bring democracy to the mountains. It is a recreation not worth putting your loved ones into misery. As they told us in the avy course we took, "All the experts are dead". Just be safe out there. tongue.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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trailjunky
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 1:38 am 
Dicey, looks like your living up to your name these days. In all seriousness, i'm so glad the two of you are ok. I cant imagine what an experience like that could have been like. Stay safe out there.

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dacker
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 9:26 am 
dicey wrote:
I kept trying to self arrest with my ice axe, but it wouldn't stick in the moving landscape around me. It was absolutely unbelievable, and scary. I was finally able to stop myself, as the snowball field continued into the trees below and stopped.
This seems like a good time to raise a point about what to do if you are caught in a slide. Disclaimer before you turn on the flame-throwers: I have not been in an avy myself and hope I never am. This advice is what I have learned in avy clinics and basic climbing class. Dicey discovered that self-arrest isn't going to work, and the only reason it eventually did was because the slide was so shallow and relatively slow moving. Ordinarily you aren't going to be able to cut through the moving snow to stable terrain below and even if you could, the force of the avy would be so great that you couldn't hang on. So rather than trying to self-arrest, the standard advice is to ditch whatever you can--except your pack, which helps keep you close to the surface, or so they say. With swimming motions try to keep yourself on top of the moving snow and try to avoid going into a roll at all costs. Then try to "swim" towards the edge of the slide. As the snow slows to a stop, bring your hands up and make an air pocket in front of your face. Every little bit helps. I said this before and I'm going to repeat it... Why doesn't this board have a forum devoted to accident/safety discussions? That is where this thread belongs, not in trip reports!

We don't stop hiking because we grow old; we grow old because we stop hiking. --Finis Mitchell
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Slide Alder Slayer
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 11:13 am 
I have always enjoyed reading Dicey’s trip reports and I doubt anyone could have done better and most of us reacted slower given the same circumstances. This report is posted exactly where it should be; after all it is a trip report.

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gyngve
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 12:49 pm 
dicey wrote:
We didn't dig any pits, hasty or otherwise. I won't speak for Mark, but for me, it is more about my lack of confidence to accurately analyze the results more than anything else. Not an excuse, I just need to make more time to practice the not terribly exciting or fun but still very important componants of being out there this time of year.
Don't be too concerned about accuracy. You're mostly trying to get the big picture. Though many of the tests have precise numerical scores, you can think of them in terms of red, yellow, green. Play with the snow every chance you get. As you're hiking along, you and your partner can talk aloud about what you see, hear, and feel and how it relates to snow stability. In a minute or two, you can dig a small pit and get a feel for what's going on in the top two feet regarding layers and weaknesses. Try jumping above your tracks or cutting a small roll where it's safe.

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Sabahsboy
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 8:04 pm 
Dicey's misadventure
Thank goodness you are safe! Sometimes, lessons are learned by mistakes; this one may not provide all the material since it was sudden and difficult to analyze as yuo descended. Suffice it to say, I bet your adreneline was at peak performance! Only avi I experienced was moving so slow I merely walked out of it. It was crystal slush that I disturbed and gathered some speed; the entire slope just slumped and eased downward in a wonderful sound I can still hear...it was just after leaving the summit of Snoqualmie on my birthday way back when I still had them, May 25th...on a Memorial Weekend. A late spring storm had dumped a foot of snow on the slopes days before. So, the freeze-thaw cycle created this icy slushy stuff. When I stepped into or on it...the whole slope was so covered, but was stabile above, the sensation was of oozing mush. However, as it accumulated at the bottom of the runout, it piled many feet high. I don't recall terror, just amazement. And, a newly learned respect for slopes of ice and snow. Years later I spent a great deal of time on snowy, winter slopes...and, was very fortunate to see not a single slide or avi. The only real avi I ever witnessed "close" was off Spark Plug Peak, dropping out on already avi covered slopes onto the lake ice one warm March day back in the late '70's. I was well out of the way for that.... I saw several big avilanches break away from Rainier while winter traveling above Paradise. Those were impressive though a mile or more away...maybe even two miles away up the top of Nisqually Glacier. One must go to the mountains with deep respect and be honored by the performances of Nature. And, be happy that one has another one of the 9 lives to pursue.

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dacker
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dacker
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PostTue Dec 12, 2006 8:17 pm 
Slide Alder Slayer wrote:
This report is posted exactly where it should be; after all it is a trip report.
Sure, for the original TR. But the ensuing multi-page thread is dealing with a safety issue and readers might want to be able to look it up later under such, so I respectfully disagree. Safety forums, where you can discuss such issues at length, are a standard feature on climbers' sites and I think hikers' sites should feature them as well. Anyway, it's a moot point for now, because we don't have such a forum.

We don't stop hiking because we grow old; we grow old because we stop hiking. --Finis Mitchell
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