| Previous :: Next Topic |
| Author |
Message |
Sabahsboy
Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2484 | TRs | Pics
Location: SW Sno County |
|
Sabahsboy
Member
|
 Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:38 pm avalanche thread suggestion
|
|
|
Would administration be able to transfer the thread to Trail Talk so this particular subject could be examined in the future? I would guess some of the thread should be edited, leaving the pertinent information for future reference.
|
| Back to top |
  
|
|
jenjen
Moderatrix
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 7617 | TRs | Pics
Location: Sierra stylin |
|
jenjen
Moderatrix
|
Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:43 pm |
|
|
Dacker, you brought up the safety forum idea just a few days ago. The admins and moderators all have responsibilities in real life, so things don't happen instantaneously. We don't have a safety forum currently because there weren't enough accident reports to merit one.
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tom
Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17854 | TRs | Pics
|
|
Tom
Admin
|
Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:31 pm |
|
|
I think a problem with a safety forum is there would be too much noise for it to be useful. For example, check out some of the recent threads started by gyngve on the topic of safety. Lots of noise to weed out for someone looking for information. Nothing wrong with that - it's the nature of a forum like this, but I think you really need someone willing to take the time to organize and summarize stuff like this for it to be useful - except for perhaps the gun threads relating to personal safety, ha, never any noise in those threads whatsoever! 
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dacker
little black dots
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 738 | TRs | Pics
Location: the end of my rope |
|
dacker
little black dots
|
Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:51 pm |
|
|
Sorry, didn't mean to come on so strong about it. Just meant it as something to think about because those forums do seem useful on other boards I visit. New kid isn't really trying to charge into an established community and start changing it.
We don't stop hiking because we grow old; we grow old because we stop hiking. --Finis Mitchell
We don't stop hiking because we grow old; we grow old because we stop hiking. --Finis Mitchell
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joker
seeker
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 7953 | TRs | Pics
Location: state of confusion |
|
joker
seeker
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:10 am |
|
|
| gyngve wrote: | | dicey wrote: | | We didn't dig any pits, hasty or otherwise. I won't speak for Mark, but for me, it is more about my lack of confidence to accurately analyze the results more than anything else. Not an excuse, I just need to make more time to practice the not terribly exciting or fun but still very important componants of being out there this time of year. |
Don't be too concerned about accuracy. You're mostly trying to get the big picture. Though many of the tests have precise numerical scores, you can think of them in terms of red, yellow, green.
Play with the snow every chance you get. As you're hiking along, you and your partner can talk aloud about what you see, hear, and feel and how it relates to snow stability. In a minute or two, you can dig a small pit and get a feel for what's going on in the top two feet regarding layers and weaknesses. Try jumping above your tracks or cutting a small roll where it's safe. |
Hmm, in this case, do you actually think pits would have given much useful info above and beyond just dipping a hand in the snow to see what its consistency was? If I was reading correctly, it was a point release, not a slab, with sliding/rolling balls, not slab chunks that were sliding on a bed surface. Not that pits are a bad idea and all, but in this case I'm wondering if they would have given info to predict what happened.
Whereas other clues, such as the feel of the snow while breaking trail might possibly have been a clue that a rapid change was occuring - the original post mentioned "The sun came out, and we both noticed and mentioned how warm it was getting." followed a sentence later by a comment about having trouble breaking trail while sidehilling. Sounds like Dicey did a good job of analyzing that they'd not responded to the warmup cues before heading onto an exposed slope. So again, not sure adding pit digging to the mix would have changed the story in this case - it appears the key info was already there to see.
That said, "constantly playing with the snow" to see what's up with it and thinking about what it means for avalanche is great advice, and digging hasty pits or otherwise finding ways to do lots of cheap stability tests over many locations is good practice. The trick, of course, is learning how to calibrate the findings w/o making a bad mistake.
Dicey and Mark - I'm glad you guys got a cheap lesson. If you're like me, you have a bit of a haunting feeling when you think back to it, but at least it makes you a bit wiser.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jenjen
Moderatrix
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 7617 | TRs | Pics
Location: Sierra stylin |
|
jenjen
Moderatrix
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:11 am |
|
|
| Dacker wrote: | | Sorry, didn't mean to come on so strong about it. Just meant it as something to think about because those forums do seem useful on other boards I visit. New kid isn't really trying to charge into an established community and start changing it. |
No sweat. 
There is a Hiker Safety sticky in the Trail Talk forum to discuss these sorts of things. This way we can see how the idea floats.
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gyngve
Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 1161 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gyngve
Member
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:12 am |
|
|
| joker wrote: | | Hmm, in this case, do you actually think pits would have given much useful info above and beyond just dipping a hand in the snow to see what its consistency was? If I was reading correctly, it was a point release, not a slab, with sliding/rolling balls, not slab chunks that were sliding on a bed surface. Not that pits are a bad idea and all, but in this case I'm wondering if they would have given info to predict what happened. |
I'm thinking something in between dipping a hand and a big pit. A 1-foot-wide 2-foot-deep pit. Identify how deep the slush is, perform a tap test.
A deeper pit could be used for assessing if a sluff would trigger a bigger avy on a deeper layer.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gyngve
Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 1161 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gyngve
Member
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:25 am |
|
|
| Dacker wrote: | | Dicey discovered that self-arrest isn't going to work, and the only reason it eventually did was because the slide was so shallow and relatively slow moving. Ordinarily you aren't going to be able to cut through the moving snow to stable terrain below and even if you could, the force of the avy would be so great that you couldn't hang on.
So rather than trying to self-arrest, the standard advice is to ditch whatever you can--except your pack, which helps keep you close to the surface, or so they say. With swimming motions try to keep yourself on top of the moving snow and try to avoid going into a roll at all costs. Then try to "swim" towards the edge of the slide. As the snow slows to a stop, bring your hands up and make an air pocket in front of your face. Every little bit helps. |
Dacker, your advice is sound for slab avalanches where you could get buried, but in a wet slide that's really just knocking you off your feet, I'd keep the axe.
Arresting is a good idea. Even if it doesn't stop you, it may slow you down or at least keep you head-up and out of a tumble. If the avy is going to carry you over a cliff or into rocks, then try to self-arrest by all means possible. The pick of the axe may be insufficient and you may need to try using the adze or whole head.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guiran
Member
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 621 | TRs | Pics
Location: University of Washington |
|
Guiran
Member
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:29 am |
|
|
On very wet snow, especially if the top several inches are slush, the best way I've found to arrest is to quickly cane the axe. Of course, you need to be really paying attention for this to work.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gyngve
Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 1161 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gyngve
Member
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:58 pm |
|
|
A few years ago I slipped while plunge-stepping down Ulrich's Couloir midday in June. The steepness was about 35 degrees, and my foot hit an icy patch. By the time I tried to arrest, I was back on slush again, and the pick did nothing. I came to a stop about thirty feet later after very aggressive arresting with the head of the axe. The next few hundred feet down the couloir I did face in and with cane self-belay. My axe that day was a Camp aluminum ultralight (55 cm, 9 oz or something sick like that).
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guiran
Member
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 621 | TRs | Pics
Location: University of Washington |
|
Guiran
Member
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:01 pm |
|
|
Gary, were you using the adze perpendicular to the snow or the entire head of the axe parallel to the snow?
Never thought of trying that approach.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dacker
little black dots
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 738 | TRs | Pics
Location: the end of my rope |
|
dacker
little black dots
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:09 pm |
|
|
| gyngve wrote: | | Dacker, your advice is sound for slab avalanches where you could get buried, but in a wet slide that's really just knocking you off your feet, I'd keep the axe. |
You are right of course. The advice I relayed does apply mainly to to slabs and bigger slides which could bury you. I wouldn't ditch my ax in the type of slide dicey experienced either, but I might have tried to ride it as if it were a glissade until I could get myself stopped.
We don't stop hiking because we grow old; we grow old because we stop hiking. --Finis Mitchell
We don't stop hiking because we grow old; we grow old because we stop hiking. --Finis Mitchell
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gyngve
Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 1161 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gyngve
Member
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:16 pm |
|
|
| Guiran wrote: | | Gary, were you using the adze perpendicular to the snow or the entire head of the axe parallel to the snow?
Never thought of trying that approach. |
I don't remember. X is right on the money. btw - when I was in 3rd grade I got a foot in the front spokes and broke half a tooth.
But the next time I'm teaching self-arrest for the Mounties and have the chance to experiment, I'll give it a try.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scrooge
Famous Grouse
Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 6966 | TRs | Pics
Location: wishful thinking |
|
Scrooge
Famous Grouse
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:25 pm |
|
|
| gyngve wrote: | | I wouldn't ditch my ax in the type of slide dicey experienced either, but I might have tried to ride it as if it were a glissade until I could get myself stopped. |
No offense, but go back and read Dicey's post. There was no time or possibility for any choice of responses. She's fast, and she was "programmed" to self-arrest when she was sliding, but that had no effect, at all, when the snow was sliding.
................................
I remember a somewhat analogous situation, getting swamped in whitewater. Conditions around you changed faster than you could react, and the power of the forces involved kept any of your actions from having any noticeable effect.
Dicey did everything she could ....... and then got lucky ....... thank goodness. 
David
Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gyngve
Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 1161 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gyngve
Member
|
Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:43 pm |
|
|
Scrooge, I didn't say that. Dacker said that. Please edit.
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s). |
