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Dirty Tough
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PostSat Mar 24, 2007 10:22 am 
Pütz-in-Boots wrote:
Dirty Tough wrote:
PIB wolf numbers have not dropped in yellowstone. They expanded this year by 18%. That is not a drop.
up.gif up.gif up.gif
I agree. As soon as all the elk are gone the wolves will start dying off.

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peltoms
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PostSat Mar 24, 2007 1:34 pm 
hurting hunting?
I am bewildered by the thought that wolves will reduce hunting opportunties long term. One of my professors in college, note link, has spent over thirty years studying wolves hunting moose, and in the first ten years, never saw them bring down a healthy moose. Isle royaleThey had a staggeringly low sucess rate, 1 in 20. The same has been observed in Alaska with Caribou with a 10% success rate. It has been noted for deer, elk, moose and caribou in different studies that the predator-prey dynamic is such that the reduction in prey herds caused by wolves increases habitat quality and helps rid the herd of genetically unfit and diseased individuals. This results in long term maintenance of a healthier herd.

North Cascade Glacier Climate Project: http://www.nichols.edu/departments/glacier/
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Dirty Tough
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PostSat Mar 24, 2007 3:44 pm 
peltoms, what is so bewildering about that. In the link that you provided it says that the moose numbers are at an all time low. Without any hunters. Add a few hunters and the numbers get even lower. If people think they don't kill healthy animals they are wrong again. I have a buddy in Idaho who was out riding and came across a elk killed by a cougar. Some wolves came by and ended up killing the cougar. It was a Tom that he gestimated at about 150 pounds. Not a sick and weak animal if you ask me. A Conservation Officer for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) found a moose with brain worm. Brain worm completely destroys an animal's instinctive and natural behavior. This moose had wandered out on a frozen lake in winter and was slowly starving to death. Wolves came by, checked the moose out and went their way. Tracks in the snow verified it. They did not kill it even though it would have been extremely easy to do so. Wolves do kill the weak. Weak animals are not sick animals, they are simply the "less strong" of the herd. Wolves target these animals - the young and pregnant - due to their inability to escape. This is an important factor in limiting wildlife population numbers. Wolves prey directly on the recruitment and reproductive segments of ungulate populations. It really does not matter because the public does not care about sound biology.

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silence
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PostTue May 01, 2007 1:53 pm 
The deadline to submit comments on the proposal to remove federal protections for wolves in the Northern Rockies is fast approaching. U.S. Fish & Wildlife is still accepting comments about removing the Northern Rockies wolf population from the Endangered Species list until 5 pm, May 9. If this species looses their protection, then the state agencies will be tasked with ensuring their long-term viability. Folks wanting to protect the wolf population in the Northern Rockies do not support this proposal because it will hand over control of wolf management to some states (namely Idaho and Wyoming) that are more concerned with wolf eradication than conservation. Please send your comments ASAP to: By email: WesternGrayWolf@fws.gov -- Include ‘‘RIN number 1018–AU53’’ in the subject line of the message By snail mail: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Western Gray Wolf Recovery Coordinator, 585 Shepard Way, Helena, Montana 59601. Include ‘‘RIN number 1018–AU53’’ in the subject line of the letter By the Defenders of Wildlife ~ Take Action Web site at: http://action.defenders.org. Click on the Featured Action link "Our Wolves Need Your Help" and submit your comments You can use Defenders Delisting Fact Sheet at: http://www.defenders.org/wildlife/wolf/regions/nrockies_talking_pts_02_2007.html to craft your letter opposing this plan which would have devastating effects on wolves in the West.

PHOTOS FILMS Keep a good head and always carry a light bulb. – Bob Dylan
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silence
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PostMon Aug 06, 2007 1:04 pm 
There's no time to rewrite this or elaborate (sorry, Tom) -- so here's the gist of it: public comment on Wyoming's proposed shoot-on-sight (and possibly even aerial gunning) wolf elimination plan in Yellowstone and the Northern Rockies ends today. If you are appalled by these methods please go here ASAP and make your voice heard: https://secure2.convio.net/dow/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr011=b3ufz7ne61.app24a&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=789 FYI: just last week a gray wolf was spotted in NE Washington -- with our support we could see a come back in our state, too.

PHOTOS FILMS Keep a good head and always carry a light bulb. – Bob Dylan
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chep
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PostMon Aug 06, 2007 7:00 pm 
I'm sorry to be on the other side of the fence but I support the hunting of wolves. They are a nuisance animal in many cases. In fact opening them up for game licensing is probably a smart move. 1) It ensures money to monitory the species from the tags 2) It doesn't require millions of taxpayer dollars to be wasted on "air hunting" 3) Wolves should not roam unchecked and protected because they are nuisance animals in many situations. They are well known for attacking and killing cattle. 4) In a lot of places people never asked for the re-introduction of the wolf species. Where's the line to get a tag?

Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.
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Scrooge
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PostMon Aug 06, 2007 7:33 pm 
Silence said
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FYI: just last week a gray wolf was spotted in NE Washington -- with our support we could see a come back in our state, too.
So let's withhold our support. Coyotes killed my cat and jenjen's chickens. We really don't need bigger, stronger, smarter canines on the loose.

Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
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MCaver
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PostMon Aug 06, 2007 8:03 pm 
I consider many humans "nuisance auimals". I never asked them to be introduiced to the area. Can I shoot them?

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PostMon Aug 06, 2007 8:16 pm 
lol.gif

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pacyew
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PostWed Aug 08, 2007 12:26 pm 
What it comes down to is whether or not we wish to allow our wildlife demographic to again be drastically changed. Two centuries ago the West was pristine. Seventy five years ago settlement and human population growth had decimated many wildlife populations, essentially removing bison, plains elk, pronghorn and many native deer, and wolves too, from their former habitat. Today, due to the application of modern scientific wildlife management, all of those species have made absolutely dramatic come backs. The key has been scientific management, not management by emotional decisions which artificially place one wildlife species above others. We now have healthy, growing populations of nearly all of the large and small wildlife that existed here two centuries ago. What we don't and will never see again is the nearly unlimited habitat of the past. Our wildlife populations must be able to live, in balance, on what habitat is available. For this critical wildlife balance to continue, scientific management must continue as well. Wolves, given prime wilderness habitat, are historically a very successful animal. But such habitat is limited. Wolves can well exist in limited numbers in wilderness environments in balance with other species. It's also true that if wolves are left unchecked and their prey, the food part of their habitat becomes drastically reduced, their numbers would in turn fall as well. Should our hard won prey wildlife populations be slated for destruction simply to allow unchecked wolf populations to simply run their course? To do allow this eventuality makes no sense. As to large wolf populations living outside of wilderness habitat, this makes no sense at all. They are, as is the grizzly, a wilderness animal. Large numbers of wolves living outside of what we define as wilderness can not be expected to be good neighbors. All of our current wildlife resource today exists primarily due the benevolent hand of man. They exist because we have made sure that they have a place to live. The resurgence of wildlife populations in USA has not been an accident. Through science and management, we've made it happen. We have brought wolves back. We must also manage them. If this means their numbers must be reduced to maintain balance, then this must happen. Control by aerial extermination is ugly, ridculously expense and wasteful, but when it comes to wolves, today's wildlife politic offers few solutions. The best proven solution is seasonal hunting, with enough access and time in the field available to hunters to accomplish scientifically determined population goals. Only when the wolf is de-listed as an endangered species and its reintroductiontion recognized as successful can scientific management and true reintegration of the wolf into our wildlife population begin.

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MadCapLaughs
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PostWed Aug 08, 2007 1:28 pm 
I realize I may be somewhat extreme on this issue, but I am amazed that anyone with an interest in hiking or backpacking or nature would consider any animal a "nuisance" or advocate for any animal to be obliterated from its habitat. The fact is, cattle destroying land and polluting air and water are a far bigger nuisance to me than the wolf. Before the invention of gunpowder, people maintained livestock in wolf territory quite successfully. To suggest that hunting an animal to extinction is the only way for ranchers to be able to survive is ludicrous. And I'm sorry, but if the way someone makes a living runs counter to the natural rhythms and well being of the earth, then tough sh#t, you need to change. Perhaps we should allow every last big tree in the country to be chopped down so loggers have work? Same concept. Advocating the destruction of wolves so you can go into the woods and shoot an elk is just as outrageous. Are you that incompetent of a hunter that you can't compete with a canine, even though you have a high-powered rifle? Have you really been hoodwinked by the lies that wolves will eat everything in sight and leave the area barren of game animals? Please, educate yourself, and don't merely regurgitate the propaganda you've been fed. btw, that's not directed at anyone in particular, just whoever disagrees with me wink.gif

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MadCapLaughs
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PostWed Aug 08, 2007 1:33 pm 
Scrooge wrote:
Coyotes killed my cat and jenjen's chickens. We really don't need bigger, stronger, smarter canines on the loose.
Are you serious? Perhaps we don't need domestic cats being left to roam outside, killing songbirds and countless other forms of wildlife. I am amazed to find these attitudes on a hiking site. . . .

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Scrooge
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PostWed Aug 08, 2007 3:01 pm 
MadCapLaughs wrote
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Before the invention of gunpowder, people maintained livestock in wolf territory quite successfully.
confused.gif What on earth are you talking about? hmmm.gif And after that, he said
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Please, educate yourself.
.......................................... rotf.gif rotf.gif

Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
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MadCapLaughs
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PostWed Aug 08, 2007 5:03 pm 
Allow me to spell it out for you. I'll speak slowly so you understand: There are other ways to protect your livestock from wolves besides shooting them with guns and eliminating them completely from their natural habitat. Okay? With me so far? Alright . . . Before God gave man guns, man was forced to improvise to protect his flock from the big bad wolf. For instance, he bred big mean dogs to scare off the wolves, hence the name "Irish Wolfhound." Notice the word "wolf" in the name of that breed? Eureka! Thats because that breed was created to guard against wolves! Now you're getting it! Okay, you must be tired. Nap time.

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Tom
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PostWed Aug 08, 2007 6:39 pm 
Hey guys, instead of speaking slower or returning jabs, maybe take a deep breath and speak a little softer. If everyone here agreed about everything it would be a boring place, but that doesn't mean we can't show some respect for varying opinions.

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