[#19]

One fisherman sees another catching fish after fish. He asks, "What are you using"? Guy catching all the fish says, "Hooks"! That's the "cake" attitude that some fisherman have. Where did "everyone having a "right" as some have put it, to *personal* experience" come from? I never said that. That type of generalzing is BS. And I don't remember anyone ever saying, you HAVE to tell me the way to Lake Wonderful Fishing. "What's personal knowledge is route info, recent conditions, and suchlike, which is what we're discussing here". I thought we were talking about new routes being marked on a Green Trails. That ain't personal knowledge.

[MtnGoat]

"Where did "everyone having a "right" as some have put it, to *personal* experience" come from? I never said that. That type of generalzing is BS." No, you didn't and I apologize if you felt I was lumping you in with that attitude. Regardless, however, there are people here who have in the past accused me, and others, of "hiding" lakes or keeping "secrets". With that comes the unavoidable conclusion that if I am not forthcoming with everything I know or have learned when asked, I am violating someone elses right, or entitlement, to know everything I know. And I don't remember anyone ever saying, you HAVE to tell me the way to Lake Wonderful Fishing. "I thought we were talking about new routes being marked on a Green Trails. That ain't personal knowledge." Depends on how you look at it, I guess. If it's not a route maintained and funded by a state entity, I'm not sure how you could call it public knowledge per se. I may have an issue here with terminology, what I consider public is what the public pays for with state funds. All the rest is in the personal sphere, no matter how many personals that applies to, for me anyway.

[Tom]

[Regardless, however, there are people here who have in the past accused me, and others, of "hiding" lakes or keeping "secrets". With that comes the unavoidable conclusion that if I am not forthcoming with everything I know or have learned when asked, I am violating someone elses right, or entitlement, to know everything I know.] C'mon Chris, no matter how much you want sugar coat it, it's still generalizing and it's still B.S. Nobody here ever said or did that (including myself) as far as I know. As far as undue pressure to divulge secrets, I've seen a lot more "pressuring" going on in the other direction, if anything.

[#19]

I agree that you have every right to keep any info to yourself you want to. Absolutely! But........that lake you mentioned in your best of 2001 post............would you say it's closer to Cascade Pass or Stevens? Does the name start with a t, t, t, tee?

[MtnGoat]

"Sugar coating" or not, it doesn't change the fact that it has happened, I don't know what to tell you. Censorship, hiding, keeping secrets, etc, would you rather I was more *specific* than general and named names? The problem is that I am attempting to put forth a point of view without being specific enough to piss people off, but still bring in points germane to the discussion. Who said what is their buisness as I see it, and if they want to make it public (again) that's their choice, not mine. "As far as undue pressure to divulge secrets," I never ever have said there was undue pressure, that's *your* addition. I said there were comments about the folks not divulging info, that used the terms I described above. Words and civil discussion are hardly undue pressure, in my book anway. If someone can change my mind or I can change theirs by laying out a case, that's not undue, it's expected. "I've seen a lot more "pressuring" going on in the other direction, if anything." See the above. I'll admit to making a case for my viewpoint, if discourse involving disagreement is pressure, I plead guilty.

[MtnGoat]

Stevens. And it starts between T, and A.

[Newt]

Newbie here. Now, now A phrase I found on another hikers forum that no longer exists. Thread drift. Off topic. By a kilometer Maybe start a *Debate* thread for this? NN

[Tom]

Chris, you've openly stated as have others of a desire to keep certain places quiet. I don't see how anyone restating that fact (myself included) translates to "accusation", or leads you to the "unavoidable conclusion... [you are] violating someone elses right, or entitlement, to know everything [you] know...". That in particular is the B.S. I was referring to. My undue pressure comment was in response to Pappy, not necessarily you, but it certainly seems to be implied in the "unavoidable conclusion".

[Randy]

I'm not seeing the generalization in Chris' post. And, who here is pressuring anyone to keep secrets? I've said all along you're free to do whatever the heck you like with information relating to your hikes, go ahead post it on your site. All I've ever tried to get across is why some of us here prefer not to divulge certain things about certain places. My views should never pressure you into thinking one way or another. I take full responsibility for information I divulge and it’s always a judgment call. In other words, I don’t blindly flail out information left and right and assume nothing ever comes of it, I’m *not* saying that others here do. Lets just say, by some miracle, I inspired you (Tom) to go on a hike and it ended up on the net for public display. I’d feel directly responsible for the adverse, environmental (or other) affects (if any) that came of it. The driving force that gets me into off trail lakes and destinations is the very thing that *I* feel is compromised by too much public attention, that’s just my opinion. How can I spend 10 hours getting to the most wondrous, pristine lake in the Cascades and then turn around and do something that *I* feel directly diminishes the "quality" of that particular location. I can’t and won’t. That’s just me, and I’m admittedly more squeamish about such things than the average hiker out there. I still don’t understand why and how this view point angers you so. I think you’ve read too far into some of my comments and maybe some of them were poorly worded - I apologize if any of them came across as offensive. In response to your last post, the statement about certain gadgets being cheap for *you* related to your extraordinary deal making ability, a trait that has been discussed extensively on this board, I assumed you would pick up on that. It had nothing at all to do with how much money you make. "Who said I needed or wanted assistance? You've mistakenly assumed or inferred that at least three times so far." You did. Don’t forget about the 4 hours of driving we did together to and from the Stuart Lake trailhead. Don’t forget about the various e-mail conversations. Don’t forget about Mcaver’s coffee social. C’mon Tom you love tapping people for information (Beave will back me on this one!), you love route information, and that’s a form of assistance. You’ve tried to worm your way around the fact in this thread, but I know better. I don’t care, and it’s fine that you ask questions, but you should at least come clean about it. You also know that I’ve also always answered your questions and never said no to any questions about the best way to get to this place or that. I’ve actually been much more forthcoming with you than I have with even Chris, and he and I actually agree on some of these points. Heck, all he got out of me this year was a trip report to Square, a bag of chips, and beta on arguably the best trout river on the west side of the Cascades. So, I have never assumed you wanted assistance, I know you want it or at least have in the past.

[MtnGoat]

Hey! You holdin' out on me, man? And no lie about that river, it made the best of 2001! I'll never tell.

[MtnGoat]

And you think fisherfolks are tight lipped, try cavers with a new cave or archeology or petro or pictograph folks. Even worse.

[Allison]

I am biting my tongue.

[Randy]

Na. Problem is I have to actually get somewhere you haven't before I can hold out, and you've been everywhere! Don't forget about the other river I told you about. You know, the one a little closer to your house? That's a su-weet one in late July!

[Beave]

Just had to pipe up on behalf of Randy and Mtngoat, both of whom I side with in this discussion. Most of what has been said (by Randy and Mtngoat) I agree with and I'd go into further detail, but I have better things to do on a Tuesday night than argue over the internet! Tom, I must say, you are the MASTER of internet deals!! You could open up your own store if you really wanted to!! Totally Overpriced Merchandise Don't Forget Your Amex Blue Card Return Voucher! Tom, you do poke fun a bit too much and I agree you are the catalyst for some rumor spreading.... I won't give any specific examples for the sake of re-spreading them, but I vividly remember more than a couple... And then my driving!! I won't even go there!!! Maybe at the next social we can have a bitch-and-moan fest where we can argue all night!!

Jumping Tacoma

[Tom]

Randy, if you get two or more avid hikers together the conversation will inevitably lead to general "have you been there" discussions. I don't see anything wrong with that. The 4 hour ride to/from Stuart Lake was really fun, but I don't recall any secrets being let out of the bag, or any subsequent emails requesting route info. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember you asking Mike Collins for BurntBoot Peak info in the chat room the other day. I wonder how it might have been interpereted if I popped the question? Seems like a double standard. As far as the shopping deals. I'm just trying to save folks some money. I apologize if it comes accross as anything else. I'll try to tone it down. BTW, Beave you are THE man. Great pic.