[Dante]

First of all, I am not an "individualist" ideologue. FWIW the entertaining "test" at www.politicalcompass.org puts me dead center with a very slight libertarian leaning. Take the test. If nothing else it's interesting Nor do I think the government should not support schools, etc. In fact, I have voted for every school and library levy put before me. That said, my federal income tax bill paid for my use of the public lands administered by the Forest Service before the fee demonstration and should still suffice. I don't agree for the fee for a variety of reasons. I will oppose making the fees permanent by making my opinions known to my representatives and otherwise doing my best to see that the "demonstration" fails. As far as an a la carte tax system goes, if the Federal Government funded the Forest Service completely out of general tax revenues, then we'd all have to pay, wouldn't we? The "fee demonstrators" chose the method of administering the fees. If I get a ticket and lose or determine that fighting it was not worth the effort, then I will probably switch to parking outside the designated area and hiking a little farther. BTW, this thread is more or less what I wanted--a lively discussion around the fee demonstration project

[Eric]

I've bought it both years now that I've lived in WA. I don't like it at all, in the big $ picture of what the govt spends the amounts needed by the USFS are a drop in the budget bucket. But $30 is not much and I'd rather not deal with any crap so I go ahead and buy it. They are honoring the Golden Eagle this year now so I'll spend the $15 to upgrade my parks pass to a Golden Eagle. Might print out the stupid USFS website page that confirms the Golden Eagle can be used and leave that on my dashboard as well. I wouldn't mind it so much either if it went to trail maintenance or something useful. I suspect most of it gets spent on enforcement and trailhead crappers though in the most popular touristy spots. I also loathe the fact htat seniors get a free ride basically. You can buy a Golden Age pass, which now covers both the parks and the USFS for the rest of your life, no annual renewal and I think it only costs like $25 as a one time fee. Whereas if I have to pay for one every year at $65 a pop then over say 20 years it is $1300 for me since I'm not a senior. If the idea is pay as you use then at least stick to that line of thinking and let the old timers pay as they use as well. Plus they get like 50% off campground fees and such as well. Since they vote with their ballots and their $ and our younger generations don't, they get over at our expense. I did get screwed the one time I forgot it at Schreiber's Meadow. I even had the wallet pass and I stuck that on my windshield. But I got a $5 ticket upon which the ranger had written something like "Wallet pass not valid". Ridiculous IMO. If they want to enforce it that is one thing but having the silly wallet pass ought to have been proof enough that I had paid for one. Still, I paid the ticket because it wasn't worth the trouble to fight it and I don't care about the principle. Perhaps I shouldn't have caved and fought it on principle but I didn't want to deal with it. Rangers also checked my car for the pass last year at Lake Serene and at some other trailhead in the Gifford Pinchot a bit south of Rainier. That's just the two times I saw them while I was getting my gear together, so I'm sure they have checked other times too when I was on the trail I would imagine that they are out there at some places so they are out there looking to ticket people.

[Steve]

I pay the fee. It's no secret that the federal gov't does not believe that our backcountry is worth investing in. The state agencies have little recourse but to try and increase its funding from its users. If this is the only way to properly manage the forests then I'll go along with it. I wonder whether there is more time spent on looking for parking pass violators than there is maintaining trail systems, though.

[reststep]

Eric wrote

[Dante]

[kiliki]

If anyone is interested in fee accomplisment documents, you can find them here, though they are not terribly detailed reports: http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/ForestAccompRepts/ Re: The King Co. news release: King County is defining "local taxpayers" rather loosely in this case. The $40 million/year is coming from the sources Slugman stated (plus those who choose to purchase the Mariner lottery tix or Mariner license plates), not from the average KC taxpayer.

[polarbear-]

I think we should have a Melawkwa tea party to protest this unfair and under represented tax. FS parking enforcement officers that drive all the way to Spider Meadows might as well hike the trail as well and do some maintenance while they are there.

[Slugman]

I hate the forest pass, and for quite a while I refused to get one out of principle. Last August I finally broke down and got one, figuring if I was going to join the WTA voluntarily for thirty bucks, I might as well kick in another thirty for road and trail maintainance. I agree that our general taxes should cover this, but many other Americans seem to believe that "lower taxes" are of paramount importance. I am torn between anti-government feelings telling me to protest the pass, and the desire to not be a freeloader making others pay for what I use. My remarks about the pass being a bargain were meant to point out that as far as screw jobs go, this one is pretty small. I would be happier if the NFS would guarantee that all money collected would stay where it was collected, and be used to benefit the types of folks who paid it. I agree it is unfair to go to user fees for one type of activity while other types are still subsidized. I continue to battle the dark side, and will never join Darth W and the masters of evil! Never! Per the King County News release: The "taxes" the "taxpayers" are going to save are the same taxes that are being paid by game-attendees now. Since general taxpayers who don't attend aren't paying now, they will not save anything once the bonds are paid off. This is part of the dishonesty that pervades this issue:calling taxes paid by attendees "taxes" instead of the user fees that they truly are. The bottom line here is that if we hadn't built the stadium, there would have been not one penny of extra money to use for other things, since without the ballpark revenue, there would be no way to retire the bonds and no reason to get the bonds in the first place. The bottom line: the "Taxpayers" did not build the stadium, the fans did.

[Erik the Nav]

Visiting my brother a couple days ago I spied a handout that came with his forest pass - a booklet listing all the trails (and other sites, of which there were many) requiring the pass, and listing the ones where the pass isn't required. The back page of the booklet was business reply feedback form. The bro said they gave it to him with the pass. I'd never seen it before. I want one. I'm going to ask for one. And use the feeback (heh, slip, that's feeDback) card. I think some of you might be interested in doing the same -- anyone seen this item?

[Fred]

You folks are pushovers. The reason you have the fees is because you willingly pay them. Complaining about if after you've paid the fees does no good at all. And for those few that actually think you are doing something good for the trails by paying them, you are sorely misguided. Though there still are not readily available figures for the fine details since the Forest Service is less than forthright on the matter, look at the Government Accounting Office Report. Summary http://www.gao.gov/highlights/d03470high.pdf Full Report http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03470.pdf

[JayMar]

I am confused about fines. Is this correct: I think the NW Forest Pass is required at locations where no entry fee exists - and the FS has no authority to give 'tickets' with a fine. In areas that there are fees to enter such as backcountry and nat'l parks- the FS or whoever can issue tickets. I have only received piss yellow FS notices asking me to send in $5. These tickets are not enforced. I once stopped by the Verlot office a few years ago and had a ranger sell me a $5 card and NOT write a date in it - as if to suggest "just keep using this" Are there really any fines?

[Dante]

People have been ticketed and fined. I assume those are people who did not just ignore the tickets. Has anyone just ingnored the ticket(s)? What happened? Again, the violation is failure to pay the fee--not failure to display the permit. IIRC you are right, the Regs do not specifically authorize the Forest Service to issue parking permits or tickets. However, failure to display the permit (proof of payment) is probably reason enough to write the ticket for failure to pay. The tickets I have seen cite the regulation that defines the real violation--failure to pay the fee. A lot of people lose their cases by telling the Magistrate they did not pay instead of making the government prove its own case. I've read some Magistrates remind protesters that they don't have to testify, and the government has to prove they did not pay. Many protesters admit they did not pay and try--usually unsuccessfully--to contest the legality of the fee demonstration project itself.

[Brian Curtis]

[Fred]

Those quotes that I listed before are direct cut-and-pastes out of the GAO document. $10 million was used out of appropriated funds to support administration of the fee demo program, and is not accounted for in the $5+ million they cite as money that comes from the fee demo collection itself to pay for the program. Here is a writeup that explains it better. http://www.freeourforests.org/newsflash.htm#top But then, this sort of thing has been written about before too, though using GAO reports from previous years: http://www.wildwilderness.org/docs/dittrich.htm

[Stefan]

I love those places at trailheads where it says: FOREST SERVICE PASS REQUIRED AT TRAILHEAD And then down below this sign, a separate sign says: FOREST TRAIL NOT MAINTAINED One example of this was on the Mildred Lakes trailhead.