Forum Index > Stewardship > Hidden Hikes in Western Washington - more places to explore
Previous :: Next Topic  
Author Message
#19
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 2206 | TRs

#19
  Top

Member
PostSat Mar 09, 2002 11:53 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Mc P, I assume you are using me as an example and not saying I'm yelling at you?

Regarding my "secret place" - As I've alluded in other threads before, it is accessed by a good, steep trail and anyone with a map and an imagination can figure it out.  If you can't figure it out then you probably have no business there. That is where I agree with the McP's and
MtnGoat's.  But I'd give help to most any one who asked.  

I think this whole issue is complex and like I said, I see both sides.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
McPilchuck
Wild Bagger



Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 859 | TRs
Location: near Snohomish, Wa.
McPilchuck
  Top

Wild Bagger
PostSat Mar 09, 2002 3:34 pm 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Pappy, exactly. I too am not one who doesn't share info on routes with people who seem they share the same concerns as I, and respect the land and wild for what it is. However, I wouldn't want to see certain places pinned in a guide book of your favorite off-trail out-of-the-way-secluded-spot, or for that matter a new trail built up and through it either...my point.  I also certainly don't want to see someone's favorite Middle Fork Snoq. area scribed with new trails leading to generally secluded little lakes that usually takes a little planning to get to.  A map and having some knowledge as well as imagination or asking someone directly is one thing (favorable to me) but a guide-type how-to exact-route is another when it leads to little lakes. In this context, I am discreet or try to be with regards to my own site, though not entirely without fault. And though most all places have been visited well before, in the circles I travel in, one generally earns the respect for info by displaying his own character to who he or she is before it is just handed like a gift.  Though I don't profess to be an expert on the high land, like you and some others, I have climbed and hiked this land for well over 40 + years and have some pretty extensive knowledge of it (5th generation in Washington state)... people on this net have asked me for info privately and I usually feel them out first before, but those who know me and have established a friendship usually receive help from me if I have any knowledge to do so. Like you said too.  Lastly, as I am sure you and everyone agrees, the wilds are to share, it's everyone's affair, but don't beam me there Scotty, let me struggle through the brush, let me not have a paved boardwalks leading me everywhere, let me earn it to get me there...

--------------
in the granite high-wild alpine land . . .
www.alpinequest.com
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
catwoman
Member
Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 892 | TRs
Location: somewhere near Tacoma
catwoman
  Top

Member
PostSat Mar 09, 2002 4:49 pm 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
If the guide books spread the hiking traffic around a little, then great.  Why keep everyone piled on Si and Tiger?  And if someone's so-called 'secret' gets out, then heck, there are more secrets left to be discovered!  But in any case, I don't see the point of having something so awesome if you won't share it.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
#19
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 2206 | TRs

#19
  Top

Member
PostSat Mar 09, 2002 4:50 pm 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Ok, here's twist on this subject.  I have no problem with a climbers trail up somewhere like Ruby Mt.  Even if one didn't exist and a new one was built by climbers feet.  But I'd hate to see a new trail built to a lake where one doesn't already exist.

I see summits as different than lakes in this regard?  Not sure why?  And I'm not an avid fisherman.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
scot'teryx
Armchair Alpinist



Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 187 | TRs
Location: Livin' large in Mill Creek
scot'teryx
  Top

Armchair Alpinist
PostSat Mar 09, 2002 10:56 pm 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
So we are saying to lack the usage of, by restraining the lack of, by using them, for more usage, but refrain from the lacking of the usage of lacking?

I am with McPilchuck on this one. Keep the hidden places hidden, or else they will become horded by the gapers. I wish to go to many of these places this summer for solitude, and not to be bugged by a group of people. I figure you have to deserve the right to use a hidden area. My .02 cents.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Oldtimer
Member
Member


Joined: 18 Dec 2001
Posts: 63 | TRs

Oldtimer
  Top

Member
PostSat Mar 09, 2002 10:56 pm 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Since McP mentioned my name, I’ll offer my read of enjoying the mountains. It isn’t particularly different from Concerned Dad, McP, Scrooge, and/or Pappy. Experience, however, has made me cautious. I’m not publicizing stuff, although I will provide information on an individual basis--once a person proves to me he or she is dedicated to "leaving no trace."

As someone mentioned earlier, the hike books that came out in the 60’s were the beginning--both good and bad. Interest in the mountains exploded in the 60’s. The hike books were a great help, but they also were the death--sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently--of relatively pristine areas. One example . . . One of the 100-hikes books gave the route to a peak in the Lennox Creek area; the hike book included a nice b&w of a lake one went by on the way to the peak. It had grown 13-14 inch, fat fish. Six weeks after the book came out, barren. Clar Pratt, with the then Game Department, published an annual summary of fishing reports that people had sent in on 3x5 cards. By the late 60’s, he had to quit doing so. If he was honest and included information about lakes that had put out good size fish, the lakes were clobbered the next year. Louise learned the hard way that publishing repots in Signpost could be disastrous, a lesson she passed on to Anne.

I used to research Game Department stocking records to find lakes that had been stocked. A couple lakes in the Raven Roost Lookout area caught my attention. The first time I tried to get to the lakes, I struck out; went up the wrong outlet. The second time I knew how to get to the lakes; the route wasn’t particularly brushy or steep or loaded with rock slides, etc. but there was no trail; one had to pick the right route. I took my then-12-year-old son with me; he got hooked on fishing during that trip. The lower lake was loaded with 8-inch RB, and he caught one on about every cast. The upper lake was more my kind of lake. Clar summarized trip reports about those lakes at the end of the summer. I wasn’t able to get to the lakes the next summer, but I did the summer after.
Took a colleague with me. Guess what--yep, a relatively good trail to the lakes caused by the feet of many travelers.

Today is no different. Although not as many untrammeled areas are left, there are enough  untrammeled areas to keep one interested and out of crowds. Someone mentioned Lake Isabel. The traffic to the lake has been up and down like a roller coaster over the years. When one could get almost to the upper May Creek bridge with wheels, and one knew how to find the trail, it had quite a bit of traffic. And, there was a reason, which I won’t get into. When the lower May Creek bridge was washed out, and the trail became overgrown, traffic decreased. Now, it probably will be a comme ci comme call. It’s another lake WTA included in its wilderness Wish List. More people are gonna know about it, and head for it. On the other hand, it is one of the few lakes left on which float planes can land; thus, it has gotten a lot of float plane traffic, which will stop if it becomes part of a wilderness area.

Another example of recent disaster to a lake, and I’ll quit. For years, Rainy Lake probably wasn’t patronized annually, on average, by more than a dozen people. A friend of mine helped build the CCC trail from Camp Brown up the outlet. What most people didn’t know was that the trail angled to the right and dead ended in a basin. To get to the lake, one had to angle left--off the trail--at the right point. Now, I understand, someone/s has/have cleared a trail to the lake, and ribboned it. (A  couple times, I found some ribbons along part of the route; somehow, they found their way into my ribbon sack in our basement). The lake probably is headed for mediocrity, since Ira Spring included it on his list of 10 potentials for wilderness status. Sure glad I enjoyed my trips to the lake when one had to earn his way there.

I could tell a story about a lake that made it to Everett Herald, one that Made it to Tacoma Tribune, and one that made it into a then-Game Department study of Olympic National Forest. But I've said enough. I will share information, but one has to convince me first that he or she will treat it with respect. Broadcasting it to others does not meet what I expect.  

OK, that’s enough. - Oldtimer
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
borank
Lake dork



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 493 | TRs
Location: Lynnwoot
borank
  Top

Lake dork
PostSat Mar 09, 2002 11:09 pm 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Right on Oldtimer!
Since there have been no definitive studies relating how published descriptions affect area usage, anecdotal data is really all that is available.  Whether an individual has personally seen increased impact on an area with increased published exposure, or not, there are plenty of those (us) who have.  And has anyone ever seen evidence of published or written reports leading to reduced usage?
Studying maps to identify new destinations and scout out likely routes is great.  That’s how it should be done, IMO.  But it’s my experience that people are more likely to go places they’ve heard about from a friend or read about from some published source.  On numerous occasions I have encountered people off-trail following directions in a book or off a photocopy.  On one occasion in particular, the person following photocopied instructions of how to ascend Mt Watson was helpless to decipher my topo map when they asked me for help.  Without the written instructions, these people wouldn’t have been where they were (at that time).  
Discussing routes with a couple buds over a beer (or latte, or whatever) is fine.  Even an e-mail loop is fine.  But when you publish a trip report, whether book, magazine or even online, you have no idea who all is out there reading it, or what they might do with the info they glean from it.  I met a guy from Ohio at Berdeen Lk a few years back, and he didn’t get his route info at a U district pub!
I first visited East Boardman a couple years after Ken’s trip (’72) and it was a torture trip.  I visited again in ’94 via the Walt Bailey trail.  What has happened at the Cutthroat Lks because of the Bald Mtn & Walt Bailey trails (and consequent published descriptions) is criminal.  While only a tithe of the Cutthroat Lk visitors slide down to E Boardman, there are at least ten times more people who visit now than back in the early ‘70s.
To me the issue has always been for people to improve their skills enough to be able to go where they want to go without having to have a trail.  Chances are good that the experienced person will also have decent LNT ethics.  More power to them to enjoy the wilderness, because they’ve learned how to respect it and leave it as wilderness.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1499 | TRs
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
  Top

Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 12:16 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Places that are publicized should be able to handle impacts the increased traffic that publicity will bring. If off trail locations receive increased traffic their nature and character will change. Sometimes when you publicize a location some of the very elements that make that place so special are lost. Sure the grand vistas are still there, but that is only a part of it. Social trails alter the landscape and campsites start to become bare dirt. You are less likely to be alone. The wildness of the place has been lost.

--------------
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Scrooge
Famous Grouse



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 6946 | TRs
Location: wishful thinking
Scrooge
  Top

Famous Grouse
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 2:46 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
McP, I definitely will contact you offsite to find out what else you may be willing to say. The north side of the Bald Mountain ridge is one of my favorite areas and odds are I will bore you with some of my experiences there. First, though, a few corrections are in order.

I knew your trip was to East Boardman Lake. It didn't occur to me that you had any reason for not mentioning Bald Mountain Lake. I mentioned it because it's intrigued me ever since I discovered it was just a blank spot on the map, a cartographic error, until you get down to the 7.5' series. What other qualities it may have I know only from the view of it from the crest of the ridge.

I did not say that you had given a "foot by foot" description of your route. What I did say was that even if you had given a detailed description, and if that description had been widely published, it wouldn't have made any difference. No-one would have followed your "path". You're talking a four or five mile bushwhack up to the ridge, then east, then down again.

There are two logging spurs that will give you access in less than half that distance (and much less than half the elevation gain) - and nobody's going to use them, either. When I go I'll go in from the Cutthroat Lakes and, frankly, I'll be surprised if I don't find some sort of fisherman's trail all the way.

By and large the fishermen don't get their information from hiking books. They have their own channels of information and there are a lot of them and they are a lot more inclined to follow tough routes to out of the way places than are hikers.

And I do have one problem: why is it better to blab your secrets when you're half lit in some half-lit bar - then it is to talk about them here, to a very small group of self-selected outdoor lovers, all of whom eloquently express their concern for wilderness values, whether or not they exactly share your ideas about how to protect that wilderness? If you're going to share your experience at all, where better than here?  confused.gif

--------------
Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
#19
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 2206 | TRs

#19
  Top

Member
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 9:49 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Relating this back to the thread topic.  I checked out the book at REI yesterday, and from what I could tell in a short time, it didn't seem like she wrote about anything too sensitive or even always new.  There were only 5 or 6 trips to lakes.

She did include Rainy Lake, but as as been much talked about here, the secret has been out for some time.

Seemed to me that many of the trips are alternatives to HIGHLY used hikes near by.  Sulpher Mt- as opposed to Green Mt LO.  Stillaquamish meadows - as opposed to Mt Forgotten Meadows.

I think the masses will still go to Green, and many of the destinations weren't terribly appealing to me.  So to me it's a case of no harm no foul.  As long as the shelves are FULL of guide books, I see little affect this one will have except to give a gentle nudge to someone looking for something a little different.  I think that is OK. cool.gif
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
McPilchuck
Wild Bagger



Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 859 | TRs
Location: near Snohomish, Wa.
McPilchuck
  Top

Wild Bagger
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 10:25 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Scrooge, I liked your reply back and would pretty much agree with you in what you related, believe me. However I should like to comment on this: "And I do have one problem: why is it better to blab your secrets when you're half lit in some half-lit bar - then it is to talk about them here, to a very small group of self-selected outdoor lovers, all of whom eloquently express their concern for wilderness values, whether or not they exactly share your ideas about how to protect that wilderness? If you're going to share your experience at all, where better than here?"  

Iam not sure who you are referring to hear, hopefully not me, because I don't blab in bars about fragile little areas and or little out-of-the-way=lakes. As far as this group is concerned (nwhikers.net) I as well as many others who share concerns for the wilderness, including yourself, do frequently share info and routes (some of it privately in email other times not). I do admit not openly with respect to some fragile little pristine areas though. And generally if I get a feel for someone of who they are and or their intent, I am likely to be pretty free when asked about said fragile areas.  In context, whether one wants to admit it or not, guide books usually have a negaitve impact to over-usage, espacially if it's just a scramble way route more or less undefined.  Someone on this thread said something like more use is better in opening up areas to useage...that's ludicrous!  Borank cites examples like Cutthraot Lakes as being ruined by the DNR and the new Walt Bailey Trail, and I would concur!  It should have never been built...see Ashland Trek at my site for a read about related Bald Mtn. Trail (connector) when it was being built.  At any rate, the bottom line is to have pockets of wilderness for anyone to enjoy as it's everybody's affair, but to limit the impact so indeed it reamains somewhat of a wilderness for people to enjoy and for the creatures it nourishes...the more trails that are created diminishes that, unless you want to hike with crowds.  On East Boardman Lake: has no way trail yet (fishermen or not), the man-high blueberry brush has prevented that to this day as well as the steep descent into it, trust me I have been there from several different approaches and from the roads you have spoken of...it's all documented, so in that sense even though it only lies a mile or so from the Walt Bailey Trail, you are right about what you said about it, that is unless someone defines/makes a way route or clears a path and later puts it in a black & white book. Lastly, my friend Phil Leatherman (climber, Trail Blazer Club member, wilderness advocate) wrote some very sturring words once published by the Forest Sevice in the "Off-Trail Challenge Brochure," excerpts of that can be found also at my site under that topic, which is the main thrust/gut/reason of my site and stories like the Bald Mtn. Trek or Ashland Lake Trek...in essense, we the (all) people need to be more responsible with our interactions and what we do upon the land, if anyone or creature is to live and enjoy it...

--------------
in the granite high-wild alpine land . . .
www.alpinequest.com
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Oldtimer
Member
Member


Joined: 18 Dec 2001
Posts: 63 | TRs

Oldtimer
  Top

Member
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 11:08 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Pappy (to me) implied messages should be brought back to the thread. I'll do so with a quick addendum. I bought the guide books for *one* reason, and one reason only: to identify the lakes I would avoid. If you buy the books with the same objective in mind, then you have an attitude similar to mine toward the mountains.

On a quick aside, Brian Curtis said something to the effect that when lakes get publicized, the grand vistas are still there, but that's only part of it. I agree with Brian on a lot of things, including that. It reminds me of Gravel lake. During my early days in the mountains, I used to go to Gravel lake when it had *only* one campsite on the SE side. One could sit there in the evening and get a panoramic view of everything to the WNW--beautiful view. When the Cascade Crest Trail went by, goodbye enjoyable lake. View still there, but.... - Oldtimer
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Scrooge
Famous Grouse



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 6946 | TRs
Location: wishful thinking
Scrooge
  Top

Famous Grouse
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 11:08 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
I strongly disagree with those of you who think the Walt Bailey and Bald Mountain Trails should not have been built. I'm limited to dayhiking for a varirty of reasons, so without Walt Bailey's Trail I probably couldn't get to the Cutthroat Lakes, one of the finest places I know about.

I see no reason why they shouild remain in pristine isolation for the edification of those of you who do not share my limitations.  :angry:

--------------
Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you....... Go and find it. Go!
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
#19
Member
Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 2206 | TRs

#19
  Top

Member
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 11:27 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
You kind of lost me there Oldtimer.  I just wanted to comment on what I saw in Karen's book.  Didn't seem too much different than 198 other guides books available.  I don't think there will be whole sale pilaging of the land because of it.

I think you are in the VAST minority regarding guide books.  Anyone at this site NEVER use them to help them get somewhere?

Let's get real here.
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Ulrich
Member
Member


Joined: 02 Feb 2002
Posts: 175 | TRs
Location: Seattle
Ulrich
  Top

Member
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 11:55 am 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
Karen Sykes should be most happy about all this publicity about her book that barely hit the shelves! In my humble opinion this whole discussion its much ado about nothing. Or is merely the attempt to preserve some fishing holes, as if the desire to explore mother nature didn't come before fishing in artificially stocked lakes?
Back to top
View user's profile Search for posts by this user Send private message Send e-mail This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Reply with quote
  Display:     All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Forum Index > Stewardship > Hidden Hikes in Western Washington - more places to explore
  Happy Birthday HundsSolo!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
   Use Disclaimer Powered by phpBB Privacy Policy