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McPilchuck
Wild Bagger



Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: near Snohomish, Wa.
McPilchuck
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Wild Bagger
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 12:25 pm 
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Well, I've said my piece. And sorry but I don't agree with your thinking Scrooge on the Bald Mtn. Trail or the Cutthroat Lakes campsites...which is a disgrace to the mountain atmosphere and environment as well, very poor planning where those firepits were placed for one, similar to the Twin Falls campsite pits, most of them are under water 100% of the time. And as far as I am concerned (Ulrich) this discussion really has nothing to do with fishing holes or preserving them, it has to do with guide books showing you how (everyone) to get there and the potential over-use therefrom it, whether you are just out for whatever, fishing or not. Again, it's (the high country) is everybody's affair, preserving that "wilderness" feeling in areas like Bald Mtn. (on DNR land) is still a priority as far as I am concerned, and I remain steadfast in that account. Now, I'll go away and try to remain silent on this thread...

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in the granite high-wild alpine land . . .
www.alpinequest.com
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Tom
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Joined: 15 Dec 2001
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Admin
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 1:08 pm 
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No doubt social trails, pollution, etc. are evidence of impact, but citing barren lakes IMO detracts from the credibility of the argument and brings into question the otherwise noble motives for keeping certain areas under wraps.  I'm not saying the desire for numerous/large fish shouldn't be an important consideration - it just doesn't seem relevant.  If a lake goes barren can it not be restocked?  Obviously the same argument cannot be made about the other impacts of increased usage.
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Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1511 | TRs
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
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Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 1:30 pm 
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Tom and Ulrich, there was exactly one person in this entire thread who cited declines in fishing as a concern. Even then it was meant to illustrate a symptom among many symptoms of the problem, not that is was the problem itself.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1511 | TRs
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
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Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 1:32 pm 
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Quote:
I think you are in the VAST minority regarding guide books.  Anyone at this site NEVER use them to help them get somewhere?

I haven't opened a local guide book for info on how to get somewhere in at least 20 or 25 years. I was cured of that as a teenager when I selected a location out of one of the 100 Hikes books and found myself seemingly at Grand Central Station in the Cascades. Just this last summer I went out on a Friday and unknowingly stumbled into what had been published as the hike of the week in a nearby paper. It was a constant stream of people going up and down the trail. This was a location that could handle the increased traffic without any trouble so I have no problem with the paper publishing that particular article, but there is absolutely no question that publishing guides will increase traffic to locations they single out.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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x-country
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x-country
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PostSun Mar 10, 2002 2:01 pm 
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I was up at the highly spectacular and little publicized Obfuscaturite Lake last summer.  I don't believe this lake is in any guide book which is probably why there are still 18-inchers in it.  On the other hand, I may have stumbled on the lake's little known big hole, the side opposite the hanging glacier.  I don't believe I saw anyone else there on my way out or in, and there were no campsites to speak of.  There were a couple old shotgun shells where I parked, but as there is no trailhead, what kind of an indication is that?  They could have been shot from miles away and just landed there.  For all I know, I may have been the first one there in the last 15 years!  I am confident this lake will not show up in any hidden lakes book.  It is too hard to get to--more than two days.  It might get passed around in a barroom conversation but that's about it.
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lopper
off-route



Joined: 22 Jan 2002
Posts: 792 | TRs

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off-route
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 3:12 pm 
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I'll go on record as being another member of the "vast minority".  The idea of the "100 hikes exclusion list" has been one of my guiding themes  for decades.  It is all about mob-avoidance.

I find far more and better material is available on the trail-free high-routes and on the overgrown trails of yore.

One example of the latter WAS the CCC trail from Camp Brown up to Rainy Lake.  It was inevitable that it would become a "listed" destination once the new bridge went in at the Taylor confluence.  No more canoeing across the MFK  and thrashing from ribbon to ribbon to the lonely tarn.

It would be really interesting to know when and by whom that trail got built in the 30's or 40's and what the old cable bridge at Camp Brown looked like.
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#19
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PostSun Mar 10, 2002 3:22 pm 
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I just love the way people take things out of context!

I asked if YOU, and that is everyone that reads this, have NEVER used a guide book.

I didn't ask if you use one NOW!

You're a hypocrit if you've EVER used one and now criticize someone for writing one.
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#19
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PostSun Mar 10, 2002 3:40 pm 
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True Brian, only one person had brought up the issue of fish.  But not one person responded to my contention, that I view lake destinations differently than summits. I was trying to be honest about something that feels a little hypoctical in myself.  I don't see the same concern with any of you (hidden lake lovers) either for over use of a non-lake destination.
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Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1511 | TRs
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
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Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 4:06 pm 
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I had a reply composed in my head but I got distracted. The difference between lakes and summits is that people normally don't camp on summits so their impact doesn't tend to be as great. The places where you tend to find the greatest impacts are lakes because people spend more time there. And, btw, a FS study found that anglers and non-anglers spend just as much time at the lake shore.  

Last summer I visited a little x-country lake that was absolutely incredibly unusual and gorgeous. The lake was high with a very fragile surroundings. I wouldn't dream of posting a trip report to this lake. It is out there for anyone to discover,  but if I put up a trip report it will attract people (it is that nice) and it won't take many to have an impact on this fragile location. I'll probably never go back to this special place so I'm not trying to keep it just for my own secret hideaway. The lake has no fish so I'm not trying to protect the fishing. I just want everyone else to have the same opportunity to find the place and to find it just as lonely and untouched as we left it.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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catwoman
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Location: somewhere near Tacoma
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PostSun Mar 10, 2002 4:19 pm 
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(yawn) This whole thread has gotten ridiculous. If you any of you are so adamantly against sharing what you consider your 'own' secret spots, then don't even tell us about them and dangle them in our faces.  Bragging and teasing is just plain rude.
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#19
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PostSun Mar 10, 2002 4:28 pm 
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Climbers and hikers often camp in meadows and cause well documented impact, so your "people don't camp on summits" theory doesn't wash.

There are thousands of acres of off-trail meadows that are very fragile, yet who would complain if someone wrote a trip report about one?

Do anglers and non-anglers spend the same amount of time at off-trail lakes?  With no fish?
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Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1511 | TRs
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
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Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 4:29 pm 
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Quote:
You're a hypocrit if you've EVER used one and now criticize someone for writing one.

You appear to be making a false assumption here. I am not criticizing all guide books. I think that guide books should send people to places that have the infrastructure to handle increased usage. That means that I think guide books should stay away from x-country locals.

Quote:
I asked if YOU, and that is everyone that reads this, have NEVER used a guide book.

I didn't ask if you use one NOW!

I'm picking nits here, but your exact words were "Anyone at this site NEVER use them to help them get somewhere?" which is phrased in the present tense, which is how I interpreted your question. Now that I understand how you meant your question to be taken I can answer it again, though my answer won't really change. Yes, I have used guide books. But my experience with them has been that the locations in the guide books have often been overrun with people so I no longer use them. At the same time I think they serve a useful function to help many less experienced hikers find good places to go hiking. My only objection would be a case where people were sent to a location that will be adversely impacted by the increased traffic.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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#19
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PostSun Mar 10, 2002 4:32 pm 
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Beckey's CAG are bad then?
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Ulrich
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PostSun Mar 10, 2002 4:32 pm 
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Well put Catwoman ! But back to the beginning of this thread. I thoroughly enjoyed Karen Sykes' book. It certainly gives me new ideas. I highly recommend it. With all the input by such distinguished bushwackers as Steve Fox and Randy Bush I think it is a must for every hiker's library.
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Brian Curtis
Trail Blazer/HiLaker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 1511 | TRs
Location: Silverdale, WA
Brian Curtis
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Trail Blazer/HiLaker
PostSun Mar 10, 2002 4:58 pm 
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Quote:
Climbers and hikers often camp in meadows and cause well documented impact, so your "people don't camp on summits" theory doesn't wash.

There are thousands of acres of off-trail meadows that are very fragile, yet who would complain if someone wrote a trip report about one?

Yes, if a guidebook or trip report were to spotlight a particular meadow and increased usage was likely to lead to impacts then I would most certainly complain. I don't care if the impacts are around a lake or in a meadow or in the deep forest.

Quote:
Do anglers and non-anglers spend the same amount of time at off-trail lakes?  With no fish?

The study I referenced only looked at on trail lakes. The majority of users were non-fishers so in aggregate non-fishers spent more time on the lake shore.  I would guess that at many x-country lakes the majority of visitors would be anglers. Here two, each user whether angler or non-angler will spend the same amount of time at the lake shore but in aggregate anglers will spend more time at the lake shore.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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