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McPilchuck
Wild Bagger



Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: near Snohomish, Wa.
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Wild Bagger
PostMon Mar 11, 2002 9:41 am 
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Comment: †not that anyone here doesn't respect the wild for what it is, because I do think we on this board perhaps agree more than we disagree in realted topics about the land we love...profoundly and most humbly I thank you whoever the "Off Trail Challenge" person is for posting your note therefrom my site.

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in the granite high-wild alpine land . . .
www.alpinequest.com
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 10:02 am 
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"And I do have one problem: why is it better to blab your secrets when you're half lit in some half-lit bar - then it is to talk about them here, to a very small group of self-selected outdoor lovers, all of whom eloquently express their concern for wilderness values, whether or not they exactly share your ideas about how to protect that wilderness?"

Because in that bar, you know where the info is going. Claiming info posted on the 'net is shared by a 'very small select group" is, well, a bit off. There's a big difference between exchanging info with someone face to face whom you understand and know a bit about, vs irretrievably blabbing said info on a medium where anyone with a 'puter can find it.

Besides, even those here who say they value wildernesss certainly don't do so in the same way, and trying purposefully to *increase* impact in less traveled areas, such as to Delta lake for example, certainly doesn't mirror my concern for wilderness values nor ideas on how to protect it.

"I want to say one more thing...... the 'impact' that guidebooks have had on the wilderness is minimal compared to the awesome 'impact' the wilderness has had on me (and many, many other people). A select few do not own it. It's there to be shared. "

As has been said, there's no one here claiming to own anything we're talking about, save personal experience. You want to go to a lake or peak have at it. There's not a single "hidden" spot on a map, no "personal" lakes or peaks. Sure these things are to be shared, that's something else we all agree on.

You want personal experience, that's a different story.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Ulrich
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 10:08 am 
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In case members of this distinguished panel aren't aware there is a detailed report to Rainy Lake by Randy Busch on Vtrail, a website easily accessible to the public. It appears predating Karen Sykes' book.
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#19
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 10:49 am 
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Think many valid points have been made by all here. Scrooge an Boranks last ones were both very good. †To make Boranks point, I didn't know that people were going all the way to Canyon Lake via the Bath Lakes High route. †But now I'm thinking....hmm sounds good.

I have been around more than some and less than others, but I've never written a trip report. †I have no web site.

Lastly, I do believe that most everyone here is very well intentioned and have thoughtout there own beliefs quite well. But one thing I have become more and more aware of , and that is to minimize my impact in any way I can.
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MCaver
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Joined: 14 Dec 2001
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 11:20 am 
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Quote:
Besides, even those here who say they value wildernesss certainly don't do so in the same way, and trying purposefully to *increase* impact in less traveled areas, such as to Delta lake for example, certainly doesn't mirror my concern for wilderness values nor ideas on how to protect it.

Chris, do I remember your position correctly that you oppose the creation of the new wilderness area near Index because it would limit access and possibly close some existing Forest Service roads? How would that be "concern for wilderness values", and not be "trying to purposefully increase impact"? Access over protection was your arguement, no?
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Lurk
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 11:23 am 
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I usually don't comment too much, don't expect too many people to even consider what I have to say, because I am not a regular, but I do "lurk" and enjoy the discussions. I do however like what some have said in defense of secluded places, even though on maps. Particularly as it relates to that off trail challenge thing I read on this thread and at mcoilchuck's site. †As well as pappy's last line comment about becoming more aware of the environment and minimise his impact. This I believe is the heart of this thread. If guide books lead everyone to seldom visited places (step by step) (scamble by scramble) there won't be any seldom-visited places anymore in a few years for anybody. †The worst case is of course, a wide trail being built there. †Most trail destination are of importance, and do create a certain sense for the overall picture of awareness to our environment, but it's where they are put and where they lead that needs to be scutinized.
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Allison
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Feckless Swooner
PostMon Mar 11, 2002 11:37 am 
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I would say that anything written by someone called "Randy Busch" would be highly suspect.

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MtnGoat
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 11:43 am 
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"Chris, do I remember your position correctly that you oppose the creation of the new wilderness area near Index because it would limit access and possibly close some existing Forest Service roads?"

Yup.

"How would that be "concern for wilderness values", and not be "trying to purposefully increase impact"? Access over protection was your arguement, no?"

Because access to roads *already* open, and areas *already* clearcut, isn't increasing impact. The most severe of possible human caused impacts have already occurred. No additional number of feet or wheels on pre existing roads will come anywhere close to the impacts already caused by logging.

If the new wilderness designation covers areas not already cut, I don't have a problem with it whatsoever. In areas where there are not roads I don't support new ones.

My concern for wilderness values applies to areas where such values still exist. Clearcuts a half mile on a side don't meet this criteria IMO.

Also, by supporting keeping access open, that's all I'm doing. I'm not pushing use of any one road, I'm not pushing for increased usage explicitly, only supporting that access be maintained for those who choose to take the time to find places they'd like to go. Just as I support people who are interested in off trail destinations in wilderness, without supporting the publicity of *particular* destinations which haven't seen many feet.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Randy
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 2:58 pm 
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My name is appearing too much in this thread, so Iíll take the bait. All this talk about me having anything to do with Karenís new book is really unwarranted. All of the credit for its completion goes to Karen and all the hard work, passion, and dedication she put into it. I have not seen the book yet, but knowing Karenís writing and the types of places she enjoys Iím sure itís a fine piece of work. In reality, I had next to nothing to do with its content. Karen and I walked several of the old trails she was proposing to put in the book together, but I was more or less following her to some of her favorite places. I was just along for the good company and good views to places like Paris Creek and the road up to Granite Lakes. I also helped out with a couple of the maps; maps for places like Troublesome Creek. I think my role in this book had more to do with supporting Karen through the multi-year process - the type of support that comes with being a friend. Never did I divulge information on places I consider to be pristine, untouched or worthy of a ďsecretĒ. No need for me to reiterate how squeamish I can be about giving information on my fave places to explore. Writing a book sounds like an exciting and interesting project to undertake, but in reality thereís a lot of BS and politics that come with it, especially in the guide book realm. Karen had a lot of fine people supporting her and providing help when she needed it; anyone from a hiking partner just for some company to someone to e-mail late at night when things werenít going too well with progress on the book. I played this role much more than any other.

Quote:
In case members of this distinguished panel aren't aware there is a detailed report to Rainy Lake by Randy Busch on Vtrail, a website easily accessible to the public. It appears predating Karen Sykes' book.

And? There is more than one report over at WTA predating my vtrail report. Dreisbachís route description in his book predates my report as well. The CAG alludes to the route as well, predating my report at vtrail. The MFK web-site has an in-depth route description and pictures which also predates the vtrail report. The FS has flagged and explored the route on several occasions in the past few years (itís now on the latest GT map); Ira Spring has publicized the route and lake. Iíve been up there 5 times in the last three years, everytime Iíve cleaned dozens of flags from the route. The word is out on this one, and it was out long before Karen or I came around to hiking it. I say let a few more people find Rainy. Throw them that bone, and keep them from the real su-weet spots in the area. I hope ya'll have (and will) be showing the same concern with the M FK paving project as you have with this lake.

And to the little sewing circle of folks out there who like to pass on degrading and insulting e-mails amongst themselves and to people they think they know, well, you really should be more careful who you send this stuff to. Normally I wouldnít want to be caught up in this BS for anything, but when it's directed at the group of people I hike with and consider friends, then I take it personally. Not only does it make you look unintelligent, but it gives a bad name to some of the quality individuals (whom I have a lot of respect for) that make up the groups you help represent.

Randy
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Allison
Feckless Swooner



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Feckless Swooner
PostMon Mar 11, 2002 3:56 pm 
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Well, for what it's worth, I was totally kidding.....unless of course this wily and intrepid "RB" character was maybe trying to throw us off the course of some "su-WEET" little pile of fish laden water he found.....and what's all of this about the little circle of emails? How come I'm not getting those? Or am I? †dizzy.gif

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Randy
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 6:03 pm 
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Nah, come on, we're buds...none of that was directed at you. And no, pretty sure you didn't get any of the e-mails in question.
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Tom
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Admin
PostMon Mar 11, 2002 6:23 pm 
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Secret sewing emails? †Oh don't tease us further with these tidbits! †I feel like such an outsider - this is worse than being left off the secret hike distribution wink.gif.
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catwoman
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 6:26 pm 
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Same here! †And the secret pub trail distribution list, too!
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polarbear
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 6:38 pm 
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I haven't seen the book, but I suspect several of the hikes have already been written up in the P-I's getaways, e.g.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/getaways/28247_hike21.shtml
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polarbear
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 6:45 pm 
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Oops, maybe I should log in and do things right in case I need to edit. †I doubt Paris Creek is going to be mobbed this year because of either the article or the book. †Maybe a few people will visit it. †Has anyone added it to their list out there? †It seems like alot of us mostly like hiking to lakes, peaks, or fishing places. †Most of the crowds will continue to go to Snow Lake, Lake Annette, etc. †But if I start hearing people in Rosalyn singing "I Love Paris", then it might sway me to think the book has had a larger effect than I thought. †How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paree?
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