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Benjamin
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 8:31 pm 
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I was not going to comment on this thread seeing that many valid points had been made commending both sides.  Many people lie somewhere in the middle realizing the numerous baneful and benevolent consequences to publishing routes and descriptions.  However, I was down at REI having a pack repaired today and decided to quickly glance through the book.  Most of it seemed acceptable.  There was not anything top secret being published and I was for the most part pleased.  That is until something caught my eye in Karen's entry on the Bathtubs.  It read, "The scattered tarns are barron of fish except for Summit Lake about .3 miles south of Bathtub Lakes." or something very simular to that.  Why must fish be mentioned?  Every yahoo and his brother will now be trying for Summit Lake to catch these fish.  To avoid confusion I will state that I am not worried about the fish being depleted.  Yes, I am a fisherman but there are thousands of places to catch fish.  I am concerned with the permanence of such a statement.  Long after the lakes population of fish have been wiped out there will be people trampling the fragile shoreline vegetation in search of these supposed trout.  Even when Summit Lake is barron the print in the book will never change, and the people will still come.  Why did this need to be mentioned?  Any idiot with a map and a pair of boots could find a way in there if for some reason he or she wanted to.  Now they will all have a reason.  Authors like Karen must be very selective when trying to "sell" their hikes to the public.  This was not an appropriate statement to make in a guide book.  I don't know why these authors glamorize their hikes anyways.  Can't we just have the route info and some stats?  No because then we did not get our $15.00 worth.  We really need to know how the view is from the top, how the creek sounds as it bubbles, how the flowers smell when they bloom, how the stars look when they twinkle, how the fish wiggle when they swim, and how birds sound when they chirp.  These types of things bring the hoards.

I only spent about 2 minutes perusing the book, so I would not be surprised if there are more of these perilous statements within, but I could be wrong.  When I have more time I will definitely look more thoroghly but for right now I would not say the I am thrilled about this publication.

Benjamin
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Alan Bauer
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 9:58 pm 
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Do you seriously think it is only the author's doing?  What do you think the publishers want!?  Mountaineers Books, Falcon Press, they all would simply fire back a route description to an author if all they day was talk about mileage, trail junctions, and how long it takes.  They want to sell books.  The Seattle papers want to sell copies and build a loyal readership.  Both the P-I and the Times' Thursday inserts are fully published to purposely MAKE you feel like you're hiking the trail as you read.  If not, they would put it straight back to the authors.

The authors many times would like to have their writeups be of a completely different tone to better set themselves off as an individual to become familiar with...publishers have guidelines that almost always will reel the authors in to follow.  If you really want to complain so much about those details I suggest you write the publishers themselves.

All areas will be explored regardless of press coverage.  Population will grow.  Pristine areas are not purposely written up as both the Forest Service and authors leave out many areas for that reason.  The authors I know all have held out many locations in their books for both of these reasons.  You can still hike Snow Lake and not see a crowd, you just need to be creative.  Get up early on a weekday.  If it is that important to you, you'll do it.

Checking out.....
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 10:01 pm 
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Randy's thoughts are remarkably similar to mine. I know there are a few places she elected NOT to put in due to potential overuse. And she left out a couple places that I thought were best left unknown. And the forest service vetoed some locations. So all in all the selection is pretty darn good. I can tell you that many of the locations will not get much traffic because they just don't appeal to the masses. They appeal more to the experienced traveler looking for new adventures. Also for some you have to be willing to beat the brush, climb over logs, duck under other logs, battle devils club, and be willing to get "lost". That will weed out 99.5% of hikers. There are climbs in Beckey's guides that are rarely done, but have been published for many years. I know -- I've read the summit registers with a scattering of names over the years. Not to worry, folks! Same with this new book.
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polarbear
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 10:04 pm 
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Have to agree w/ the Snow Lake comments--the last couple times I've been there I've hiked out late (before dark) and been virtually the last one on the trail.

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...and a window that looks out on Corcovado...  Corcovado Hill
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Tom
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 10:13 pm 
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Benjamin, let me play devils advocate here.  Do you not plant fish and/or support planting of fish at some of these "fragile" lakes?  If so, how can you possibly criticize the author for mentioning there are fish in a lake?  It just seems inconsistent.  Or do you oppose continued planting of fish?  Again, just playing devils advocate.
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Benjamin
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 10:52 pm 
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Alan, I did not specify that the author was solely at fault.  Since the author did write the book it would be safe to attribute some accountability there.  More likely than not you are accurate about the publishers having to get their way.  You are also correct about a growing population and that all areas will be explored.  I think all areas have already been explored but that doesn't give us the right to expedite a surge of traffic into pristine areas.  The fact is that even though authors try to be restrictive, areas like the Bathtubs somehow find their way into the books.  Those who have been there would likely agree that it is a very small area which could not handle a large flow of people without noticeable impact.  Also, the route is not difficult.  Now with brilliant words being said about the basin, what is to keep the hoards out?  I just think in this case more discretion could have been used.  But hey, our economy has been dipping; we need to sell books, right?
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Benjamin
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 11:12 pm 
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TD, Yes I support the planting of fish but I do not support advertising locations known to me that contain fish.  The point that I was trying to make is that the book will always say "x" lake has fish, or is good fishing.  This statement permanently labels the lake for generations to come.  Fish stocking is managed on a continuous basis, not a permanent basis.
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Brian Curtis
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PostMon Mar 11, 2002 11:59 pm 
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Fish are planted without publicity. That means that most people don't know the fish are there until they've gone and exploring for them. In this fashion an otherwise unavailable recreational opportunity is provided while attempting to minimize adverse environmental impacts. At the same time, it is recognized that fish have the potential to attract overuse so discretion is used as to where fish are planted and how information is disseminated. If a place is being impacted too severely by anglers the option is always there to discontinue stocking the lake (yes, this has been done). I have problems with planting fish in certain fragile locations. Some lakes should remain barren.

A guide book has an explicit purpose of providing publicity that channels people to a specified locations. That is fine, unless locations are chosen that can't withstand increased use. Now if you combine the two by mentioning an out of the way lake has fish you have made an explicit decision to not only send hikers, but anglers to that lake and you have removed the manager's option of not stocking that lake to try and reduce the use. Anybody who reads the guide book will think there are fish there even if stocking is discontinued and instead of providing a recreational opportunity for people who find their way there you are are advertising and creating an attraction to draw people there.

I support allowing people to hike to x-country lakes. I don't like to see a guide book sending people there to hike. I support allowing people to fish in x-country lakes. I don't like to see a guide book sending people there to fish.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 11:04 am 
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Whiskey Dick speaks: As I sit here and ponder this entire thread, I have come to some very profound conclusions. Undoubtedly, some of you won't like what I am about to say, but then most people don't anyhow, one reason why I'm rather a Hermit, but that's my decision and another story altogether.

I see some of you like spoiled little brats cause it seems some of you want things handed to you on a silver platter so to speak. Some of you want "secret" or "secluded" little places revealed to you without having any zest for self exploration yourselves - as in the printing of guide books, which some of you seem to speak of with reverence similar to the bible. Some of you quiver because you think someone might know something you don't that's in an off trail area. Some of you see nothing wrong about some secluded place being writen up further, but please don't include my own - how hypocritical!

Publications and or guide books do provide a source for the masses, but they do little for solitude, yes solitude. Guide book authors should consider that when writing one. There are plenty of destinations out there in our mountains where brother Bill, Kate, and Uncle Tom and his kids and neighbors can go to provide recreation even on trails. To me, there is nothing romantic about going forth with a book to tell you where to find that. Exploration with a map or asking some of your new friends (been there, have a photo?) is far appealing than being led by there by hand from some book, that some author and publisher profit from.  Some of you really need to get your head of the dirt and smell the breezes coming down the glaciers and mountains, if you indeed want land still secluded just for that.
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Tom
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 12:47 pm 
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Quote:
I see some of you like spoiled little brats cause it seems some of you want things handed to you on a silver platter so to speak. Some of you want "secret" or "secluded" little places revealed to you without having any zest for self exploration yourselves

Give me a break.  Almost everyone who enjoys hiking has a zest for exploration.  There may be varying degrees which people are comfortable with their "self exploration" skills.  Some rely on the 100 hikes books, some use Beckey's guides, some use the internet, some use only maps.  Let's say you ONLY rely on a map.  Are you less of a "self explorer" for having relied on the map?  As far as "profound conclusions" lol.gif moon.gif tongue.gif, I have concluded there is FAR more pressure to keep things quiet than anything else.
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 1:06 pm 
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About the mention of fish in the book, I'd venture to guess most anglers wouldn't rely on a hiking guide for that info.  I purchased a fishing guide in my younger days (I assume it's still in print and is updated) that lists almost every lake in the state, elevation, size, and type of fish.  I looked at it last night and sure enough:

Bathtub Lakes:  -
Summit Lake:  RB, CT

So we're not really not talking about information that most anglers wouldn't already have.  Of course, the hard core "self explorers" may have never seen or relied on that fishing guide.  It's probably only for spoiled little brats that want things handed to them on a silver platter wink.gif.
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Brian Curtis
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 1:47 pm 
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You got a copy of Wolcott's Lakes of Washington, eh? First of all it isn't a fishing guide. It is an inventory of all the lakes in the state, their location (by Township and Range) and some physical attributes such as size and depth, etc. There is nothing about routes or access. It lists species of fish in some lakes but was never terribly comprehensive in that department. Volume one is a list of 3,813 lakes in 619 pages. Not exactly a convenient tome for an angler to thumb through looking for secret lakes.  It was published in 1961 and it has been out of print since 1973. The master for volume 2 was lost so it will never be reprinted. The complete 2 volume set will sometimes sell for upwards of $200 these days. It most definitely isn't a book "most" fishermen will have and even if they do they aren't going to find that 40+ year old information to be all that accurate. There are actual fishing guides out there that discuss high lakes. I don't like to see x-country lakes mentioned in those books any more then I do in hiking books.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 2:10 pm 
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Nope, not the Lakes of Washington books.  It's actually called "Washington State Fishing Guide" by Stan Jones I think?  It ran me a measly 10 bucks and it has a very convenient appendix.  You can get it for a whopping $1 (used) at amazon wink.gif.  Looks like the 8th edition came out recently.
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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 2:13 pm 
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From what I've seen, the info that book contains on high lakes mirrors LOW. Stan's book also covers few high lakes that are not already well known destinations, and only rudimentary route info on more obscure ones.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Brian Curtis
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 2:25 pm 
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You said it listed nearly every lake in the state so I knew that you couldn't be talking about the Stan Jones guide and the only book that fit that description was the LOW. Indeed the Stan Jones book is sort of kept up to date and they list  high lakes that I don't think should be listed. But their information on high lakes is so poor that impacts are minimized. We have made some effort to get them to change some of their inclusion policies without any success. What year was your copy published? I guarantee that they got their information on Summit based on the 1961 LOW book and they've probably never even bothered to check if that info is still up to date.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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