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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 2:29 pm 
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by the way, which summit lake keeps turning up in these discussions and in the "guess the lake" posts? There are four or five, aren't there?

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Brian Curtis
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 2:43 pm 
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There are 5 high lakes in the state called Summit Lake. There are an additional 4 lakes that have been known as Summit at one time or another but, fortunately, go by a different moniker these days.

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Brian Curtis
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 2:45 pm 
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In this discussion we've been talking about the SnoCo Summit. I have no idea which Summit someone was guessing in the photo thread.

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Tom
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 3:00 pm 
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I'm not trying to debate the accuracy of the fishing guides - just saying that anyone desperate enough to rely on a hiking guide for fishing info is probably going to be desperate enough to rely on Stan's book and/or the LOW series too.  It doesn't seem to me as if Karen's book is giving much away.  It's not clear that she verifed the fishing info either.  I don't think it's worth losing sleep over.  I'd also venture to guess that Summit Lake is not a cakewalk (as if the bathtubs were).  All these lakes are also mentioned in the "75 scrambles" book too (in the Pilchuck ascent).

I will also say that Bathtub Lakes and Summit Lake were on my "looks interesting" list well before I heard they were in any of these books, so don't blame any of the authors if I happen to go there - I suppose you could blame Mr. Delorme or Mr. USGS though.
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Randy
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 3:00 pm 
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I agree that high-lake fishing information should not be put in guide books or posted on the web. Nuff said.

The real bad one is that washingtonlakes.com website where they take and display route and fishing information for high lakes. They even have a high lake report of the month or something like that. Yikes.
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Benjamin
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 3:54 pm 
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Some of you see nothing wrong about some secluded place being writen up further, but please don't include my own - how hypocritical!

How true!  Many do not want the promulgation of their own out of the way places of solitude.  Most certainly the Bathtubs WERE just such a place for some, but not any longer.  I am not implying that the area should be limited as to who can use it; anyone who wishes to go to such a place is free to do so.  I am pointing out that having this hike published in a guide book deteriorates the magnificence of the destination.  With the excessive traffic already in the area (Pilchuck, Lake 22, Heather Lake, Pinnacle Lake, Bear Lake, Ashland Lakes, Twin Falls Lake, Beaver Plant Lake, Lake Evan, Bordman Lake, and the cutthroats) I would anticipate that the Bathtubs will soon become a heavily trampled high-use destination like the others that I just mentioned.

One more thing that I remember reading in "Hidden Hikes in Western Washington" was something along the lines of "this is a very pristine area so keep your party small."  IMO this type of statement will only attract more people.  I can't remember if it was a lake or a waterfall or whatever, but what is the point of small groups if there will be many of them?  The number of people visiting this "very pristine area" will certainly increase generating an increase in human impact.  Maybe a "very pristine area" does not belong in such a book.
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#19
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 4:28 pm 
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From my 1976 edition of (gasp, he owns a guidebook, get a rope!) 101 Hikes in the North Cascades at the end of the Pilchuck write up it says, "an easy way trail decend east along the rdige to a group of small, picturesque tarns.."  Not having been east down the ridge, I'm not sure if 101 is referring to the Bathtub lakes or tarns before it, but it is sending you in the right direction.  Again, there is nothing new in this info.

It is interesting, as I have pointed out TWICE earlier in this thread, that the hand-wringing concern is only generated towards lakes that route descriptions are written about.

excellent points Tom!
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Brian Curtis
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 5:10 pm 
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Pappy, the only types of inclusions in the guide book that people have complained about are destinations with way routes. The ONLY way route destinations mentioned in this thread as being in the book were lake destinations. Exactly how were we supposed to pick out places to be concerned about that weren't lakes when there were none to choose from?

Why is it relevant that some of these locations have been mentioned in other places? If no more people will go here since they were so well known then why is the new guide book needed? If no traffic increases to this location then the guide book would have to be considered a failure. Its very purpose is to increase use in a location. The more guide books that mention the places the more people are attracted to them. Just because a place has been mentioned before is scant justification for mentioning it again.

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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 6:01 pm 
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75 Scrambles in Washington hit the shelves in the past year. I don't remember you or ANYONE complaining about it.  Then or since then.  Are not many scrambles on way trails?  Think so.

Do you really believe that Hidden Hikes will ever sell at the rate the 100 Hikes series has.  If references to a destination have been repeated for years, and usage didn't increase at a certain location, why do you think this book will change that?

I think you telling your buddy about somewhere and he telling his and so on and so on, can contibute just as much impact. I'm responsible for 6 different people going to a lake a Hilaker told me about.  How many did my friends send? Oh, but that's oK according to you guys, because I knew and trusted them to be responsible.
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catwoman
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 7:58 pm 
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I have a complaint about the 75 Scrambles book!  The only route I've tried so far wound up to be a bit off in what they report for climbing technicality.  The one I tried was said to be merely a scramble and no ropes or climbing gear was recommended.  But, alas, once we came upon it, it was greatly exposed and vertical and definitely in need of climbing gear.  BUT...... that's a different topic!  tongue.gif
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Benjamin
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 8:45 pm 
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Pappy, a significant factor differentiates climbing summits from hiking to pristine LAKES.  This factor is the limitations of most people.  Only a small percent of outdoor recreationists have the brass to scale many of the peaks mentioned in the 75 Scrambles book, as well as 99% of peaks in general.  On the other hand, if you can put one foot in front of another, you can reach 'almost' any LAKE.  Summits requite more elevation gain, in turn more difficulty, and substantially increased "climbing technicality" (as our feline friend just put it).  With these obstacles in mind it only makes sense that summits will always receive less traffic than LAKES. However, some peaks can also be climbed by putting one foot in front of the other, which suffer from the same destruction as any over-crowded hiking destination.  We need to be equally concerned with these areas as well.  Hopefully this may explain some of the overwhelming concern for LAKES.
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 9:34 pm 
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First, take the following with a grain of baking powder.  Me and some locals used to hike a faded path to a  somewhat secret place in the Olympics called Flapjack Lakes.  Let me tell you, the place was loaded.  Silver dollars, buttermilk, beer batter, short stacks, long stacks--it had them all.  And the short stacks at that lake were like a long stack at any other place!  Nobody brought more than 9 essentials.  The tenth was already there!  A few would pack in 5 gallon cans of maple syrup, or blueberry frappe (strawberry for Belgians) on their backs, but most people agreed that syrup was an insult to those fluffy, incredibly savory* pancakes.  In truth, the only thing you really needed to bring was an appetite.  The typical sounds of nature you would hear in the morning were stomachs growling and lips smacking.  And catching a pancake was as easy as putting your hand in the water--you would always get at least a silver dollar, frequently a large stack!  We'd have pancakes for breakfast, relax and take in the scenery, pancakes for lunch.  After lunch we'd sing out at the top of our lungs "When the sun's comin' up I got cakes on the griddle, Life ain't nothin' but a funny, funny riddle!" and then we'd all poke eachother in the ribs and hyuk a bit because life was grand and we had such a good thing going at Flapjack Lakes.  Then we would take a long siesta, then have pancakes for dinner, and of course we would get up at midnight for a short stack.  Things were fine for several years, then one day it dawned on me as I looked around the office that alot of folks at the office were wearing suspenders--alot more than there used to be, which was zero.  My suspicions were  reinforced when my neighbor Slim comes over early one morning in his hiking boots and asks to borrow a cup of syrup.  Slim can't even boil water!  So a few days later I'm browsing through the bookstore and my eyes come to rest on  this book of  hikes.  Right there in the front index is Flapjack Lakes listed in big, bold print.  I knew right there what we were in for--those pancakes were going to disappear from that lake faster than a drop of water skittles across a hot griddle.  I went to a tupperware party that night and bought the biggest tupperware container they had, and then set out with my friend Flip for the lakes in hopes of catching the end of the goin' out of bizzness sale.  We spotted trouble right away.  What used to be a path now looked like a logging road.  We passed one guy carrying a Costco sized bag of Krusteaz on his back.  "What's with the Krusteaz?" we asked.  "Oh," he said, "ain't no pancakes at the lake anymore, gotta bring in your own."  Sure enough.  When we got there no pancakes were to be seen.  There were a few petrified pancakes on the ground that looked more like sand dollars than silver dollars.  Across the lake, a camper was tossing some sourdough into the lake trying to seed it and get something started but it sure didn't look likely.  It was a black day for Flip and me.  We had to borrow pancake *mix* from one of the other people at the lake..bad...we figured that was all she wrote for the lake.  It was pancake history.  Back in town, things settled down to life without the Pancake Lakes.  The suspenders went away at the office, and even Slim was starting to look like his old self again.  Well, I'd like to say this story has a happy ending, and it does.  A few of us decided to form a group called the Hot Cakers.  We took it upon ourselves to restore the pancake population to the lake.  It took awhile, and sometimes I think we ate more than we planted, but now it's a place that everyone enjoys.  Sure there are a few limits.  You can't go up there and eat 3 large stacks in a day like you used to, but there's alot of happy campers enjoying it.

*Reference: The Perfect Pancake, Virginia Kahl
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Brian Curtis
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 10:43 pm 
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75 Scrambles in Washington hit the shelves in the past year. I don't remember you or ANYONE complaining about it.  Then or since then.  Are not many scrambles on way trails?  Think so.

This is the first I have ever heard of this book. I guess I don't spend enough time in the guide book section. If you write a book about x-country they are likely to cease to be x-country routes eventually. Seems self defeating to me.

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Do you really believe that Hidden Hikes will ever sell at the rate the 100 Hikes series has.  If references to a destination have been repeated for years, and usage didn't increase at a certain location, why do you think this book will change that?

Nothing will ever have the impacts of the 100 hikes books. But a guide book's express goal is to increase the use of the areas it covers. I don't see how you can argue usage won't increase. Of course it will. The only question is by how much it will increase. The degree will depend on the success of the book and the desirability of the destination.

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I think you telling your buddy about somewhere and he telling his and so on and so on, can contibute just as much impact. I'm responsible for 6 different people going to a lake a Hilaker told me about.  How many did my friends send? Oh, but that's oK according to you guys, because I knew and trusted them to be responsible.

You've just outlined the very reason I won't reveal sensitive locations to anyone except, perhaps, people I know very well. But your premise is still flawed. If you tell 6 people about a great place then you've told 6 people and they might tell some of their friends. But if you write a guide book you will be telling however many thousands of people buy your guide who will also tell all their friends. The scale is completely different.

But don't lose sight of the fact that I'm not against guide books. It sounds, from the descriptions I've heard, like Hidden Hikes is better then most. It's highly likely I'll go buy a copy. But, I still feel strongly that x-country locations shouldn't be in guide books.

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that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 11:00 pm 
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:clown Arrrr, Arr, Me maties thar be lakes and thar be lakes. some o dem , sure ye be right, ya just put one foot in front o' de other. But that be many what thee pull oneself up de devils club an beat the brush. And when thy get tahr dee be barren as Sarah for the first 20 years.
In the faire state o Wasinton, thy ultima laggo only hath pesche if they be planted by a generous benefactor. Thy lakes are sano pesche if sui geneurus. So rue not those who go before because they are the source of the bounty.
Fishin an climbin are two different sports with different values and you can no more go back to a time when there was no one than bring back the past. The challenge is to make the best of what we got. confused.gif

",Thus though we cannot make our sun
Stand still, yet we can make him run."

appos-Andrew Marvel

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"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Sore Feet
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 12:16 am 
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Brian Curtis wrote:
Quote:

Nothing will ever have the impacts of the 100 hikes books. But a guide book's express goal is to increase the use of the areas it covers. I don't see how you can argue usage won't increase. Of course it will. The only question is by how much it will increase. The degree will depend on the success of the book and the desirability of the destination.


That's definitely the key here.  I think guidebooks can be written in a way so that Joe Coffeshop won't be willing to go searching for a location that someone with a little more interest would, and still be a useful tool.  For example, I bought "The Guide to Yellowstone's Waterfalls and their Discovery" by Rubenstein, Whittlesey and Stevens a while back.  Great book, lots of information, yet virtually none of the backcountry entries give specific directions.  It's more like "appx 5 miles NNE of Geyser X", and then you're on your own.  If more guidebooks were written in this style, I think we'd see much slower degredation of more pristine areas.

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Waterfalls - www.waterfallsnorthwest.com
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