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REJ
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PostTue May 07, 2002 10:08 am 
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Interesting article in the Bellingham Herald
Goats

There has been a decline in mountain goat population in the Mt Baker area from 900 to 33 between 1961 to 1995.

Possible explanations are:

"...several theories about the reasons for the decline in local mountain goats, the most plausible theory is that logging roads created by the U.S. Forest Service provided better opportunities for hunting the animals."

"Another possible explanation for the decline could be that logging roads have opened up recreation areas to the public that are in the goats' past habitat. The goats locally are skittish around humans because of past hunting and may now stay away from some of their historic grazing areas.."

I understand that mountain goat populations in the North Cascades have been in general decline which is too bad.
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Backpacker Joe
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PostTue May 07, 2002 6:40 pm 
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Look I'm not up on this, but it's only to bad if they are infact NATIVE to the area!  I've seen them all over the place.  Generally they are a nusence!  If they are not here via history, then see ya!

TB

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

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Scrooge
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PostTue May 07, 2002 8:00 pm 
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Those theories are typical eco-idocy. Look at the Olympics, where the goats were for sure introduced. They're all over the place, they're a nuisance, and they are not much intimidated by roads, trails or people. It's true they're not hunted, but where they are hunted it's pretty strictly regulated. - If you're not up on this get yourself a copy of the annual hunting season/license manual. It's over 100 pages of fine print. The regulations are enforced and hunters as a group are among the most eco-sensitive outdoorsmen.

So find a different explanation for the decline ..... and solve two problems by transporting Olympic goats to Baker and the North Cascades.  agree.gif

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Mike Collins
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PostTue May 07, 2002 8:19 pm 
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Backpacker Joe. You climb all the way up to the mountain goats frontyard and then call them "a nusence [sic]". Are you serious? One has to admire the animal for the incredible power it has to gain altitude so quickly, or for the agility it exhibits on steep rock slopes. It has, like other undulates, a fondness to salt so it will lick and chew on clothing and backpacks left out. This craving should not be misconstrued as an attempt to ruin your day. Whenever I see goats I feel privileged and sense a connection with the wilderness that was once more widespread. The Cascades are diminished to the degree any of the indigenous animals decline. When I write up trip reports I never mention goats which I see so as not to inadvertently assist hunters who might think otherwise. They are a wildlife treasure which is part of a living Washington heritage.
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An Observer
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PostWed May 08, 2002 5:19 am 
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Comments like "eco-idiocy", "nuscence" etc. might be a reason why this website community isn't growing much!
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Backpacker Joe
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PostWed May 08, 2002 7:04 am 
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M.C., I didnt say that animal WASNT beautiful!  They're gorgeous creatures for sure.  And yes I have seen them on near vertical ledges that boggle the mind!  I'm just in the way of feeling that if they aren't indigenous to the area then frankly they shouldnt be there!  I am also for re-introducing grizzley bears back into this area because once again, they are indigenous to the area!  Now that topic is going to get a TON of responces I'm sure.  

As far as the comment from Mr./Miss.  OBSERVER.  If you're going to make some brash observation about us, then log in and BE SOMBODY before you insult us!

TB

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"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

— Abraham Lincoln
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Dslayer
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PostWed May 08, 2002 7:15 am 
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I love mountain goats--I love to see them, watch them frolic, watch the kids and their population is burgeoning in most areas so I don't think hunters are hurting their population, in fact, the number of permits or more to the point, permit areas are increasing. The numbers of permits are small, the number of applicants is large and it's a once in a lifetime hunt--once you've been drawn successful or not you're done forever.  Plus, goat hunting is a pretty manly hunt, you can't road hunt them or sit in your comfy heated blind while waiting for them to wander by the feeder. I've thought about hunting goats in the Tatoosh where I see them frequently, but I'd just rather hang out with them.  You don't have to worry qabout telling me where you see them!

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"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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Dslayer
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PostWed May 08, 2002 7:42 am 
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Damn--now I'm replying to myself-but I completely missed the grizzly bear reintro comment by BP Joe--Man, I don't think you're crazy---but reintroing grizzlies into the Cascades is crazy-mixing grizzlies and the number of people who travel in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness per year--boy that would be interesting and correspondingly fatal to a number of people annually.

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"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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McPilchuck
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PostWed May 08, 2002 8:07 am 
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Goats:  As I undstand it, the goat population in general has been in decline due to a parasitic problem, not from more logging roads or loss of habitat or even hunting, as that is really regulated these day for goats with a permit type system allowing only so many harvested in specific areas. As for my personal opinion: I love the creature, I hunt but I don't hunt personally for ceratin creatures like goats, bears, cats, coyotes, ect. (a whitetail buck and upland birds is about it) nor do I shoot anything I don't intend to eat, for wildlife is sacred to me. One of my fondess memories of goats was on Mt. Bullon near Three Fingers Mtn. in the Boulder River Wilderness...watched 12 different goats in the evening feeding high on the mountain at the same time, as well as a few bear...it was awsome!

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#19
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PostWed May 08, 2002 9:43 am 
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I doubt that a few harsh words are the reason this web-site community isn't growing, as An Observer guessed.  The sum of all of the negative comments at this site wouldn't equal one day of negative junk spewed at Cclimbers.

I'll fall out on the side of the animal nearly every time.  As Mike said, it is the mountain goats home.  Regardless of an indigenous tag or not, it is their home now.  We are visitors.

Sitting at Prussik Pass, I bet a friend I could get up Enchantment Pk and back in an hour. Took off head down running.  Half way up, I crossed a small snowfield, looked up and found myself surrounded by 10-12 goats running in same direction as me.  Startled me at first - but then I felt privileged. yawn.gif
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Scrooge
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PostWed May 08, 2002 5:10 pm 
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Man, I am so glad you guys/gals, the regular contributors, are here.  agree.gif  Almost all of us are hardcore environmentalists, people who both care about the environment and understand what factors are really at work, whether it's human intrusion or some "natural" change. We don't always agree about the best course of action, but we usually do agree about what's at stake.

Speaking for myself, I use terms like "eco-idiocy" to desribe explanations and arguments which make spurious claim to the operation of environmental factors. Environmentalism becomes a cloak, like the flag and motherhood, to cover up a lot of fairly dubious objectives. If the Observer is offended by my use of "eco-idocy", it's nothing to my level of offense at the lies!  :angry:

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polarbear
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PostWed May 08, 2002 6:52 pm 
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I really like mountain goats.  They seem noble and oh so wise looking.  I posted a picture of one awhile back.  There was kind of a funny story behind it. A friend and I were hiking on the ridge above Snow Lakes in the Hansel Creek area.  We  were paralleling the ridge and it got kind of steep, no rope required but maybe grabbing a tree at times.  We got to a point where we were trying to figure the best way to the top.  He picked route A and I picked route B.  Both were a little scramble.  Then he told me to look behind me.  There about twenty feet away was a goat that had been following us.  We moved off the trail and let the goat approach.  The goat quite nimbly climbed the ridge using my route.  I ribbed my friend that my route had nature's stamp of approval from one of its best climbers.  The goat paused on a rock above us (see picture).  Then when we began to follow it, it went to the top and then the tip top of the ridge.  The ridge gets pretty broken close to this spot and we were trying to figure out how far the goat could go.  It stood at the top for awhile until we figured it was waiting for us to move.  Then we moved off the trail and it came down, passing within a few feet of us, and then went over the hill down towards the Snow Lake side.  We went to where it had stood and there were alot of goat droppings there so we figured the goat knew the area pretty well.




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Mike Collins
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PostWed May 08, 2002 8:05 pm 
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Dsalyer. I will tell you how I have seen goats hunted on Mt. Pugh. One man will climb high on the mountain and wait while other men below with two way radios are communicating. They are discussing how to advance so as to make the goat go in the direction toward the shooter. The goat will instinctively go higher as that is its natural defense.  Then, surprise!! Blam, blam. But why do the hunters even go to that extent. One could more easily wait for the goats to gather on snowpacks on hot days where they attempt to cool off. I see goats fairly regularly. The most difficult aspect to goat hunting has to be obtaining the tag from the state.
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Steve
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PostThu May 09, 2002 4:58 am 
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I love mountain goat. It's one of the tastiest animals I've ever eaten. Ranks up there with elk. I think I finally ran out of the goat meat I had in my freezer though.

I thought it was rather interesting that in the Olympic park the gov't thought it was doing a good thing by introducing the animals to the park now realize it was a bad mistake and can't figure out what to do.

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Dslayer
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PostThu May 09, 2002 6:31 am 
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Mike-I think that the use of 'gadgetry' ought to be outlawed-that isn't hunting  to me--might as well go out in somebody's field and shoot a goat.  The older I get, the more I think that hunting all ought to be done with muzzleloader-not that I'm entirely pure in that regard, I do hunt deer with modern rifle in WA but if they created some season more favorable seasons I'd probably go all muzzleloader all the time.

Steve-I've heard the same thing about goat meat that you're saying-if it's as good as elk, though, that's really saying something.

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"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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