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Newt
Short Timer



Joined: 21 Dec 2001
Posts: 3176 | TRs | Pics
Location: Down the road and around the corner
Newt
Short Timer
PostSun Jul 27, 2003 10:04 pm 
Not to worry. Once it bottoms out, it'll head back up again. I think the heat is getting to folks. We need rain to bring back some sanity. NN

It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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Sawyer
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Sawyer
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PostSun Jul 27, 2003 10:06 pm 
catwoman wrote:
What good is the beauty and awe of our natural world if you can't share it?!
Because it won't be as beautiful and awe-inspiring if it gets pounded by insensitive boots. If a beautiful place exists, and nobody sees it, will it still be beautiful in 100 years? A prime example is Lime Ridge. The lakes closest to the boot-beaten path are nearly devoid of vegetation. Although off trail, the forest service put signs up trying to convince people to condense the damage to a small area. Last year I visited a lake that has no path around it, no campsite, no fire ring -- no evidence of any visitation by European explorers. It is in a spectacular setting with a major peak right above it. Ain't gonna tell because it don't need no more visitors. If ya wanna find such places, study the maps and find 'em -- they are out there all over the place.

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Tom
Admin



Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 17835 | TRs | Pics
Tom
Admin
PostSun Jul 27, 2003 10:06 pm 
Catwoman, I would argue it's more about being selfless than selfish. Who wouldn't love to tell everyone about a spectacular pristine place they've been, yet there are times when your conscience tells you to bite your tongue. It's not about saving it for yourself as much as it's about saving it for the next person.

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catwoman
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Location: somewhere near Tacoma
catwoman
Member
PostSun Jul 27, 2003 10:19 pm 
the lykkens wrote:
catwoman wrote:
I'm kinda thinking that's not a bad idea what BPJ suggested. Keep the trip reports section viewable only to registered users. It certainly couldn't hurt anything.
It seems that you are contradicting yourself here. In one post you call it selfish to maintain a destination for exclusive self use and in the follow up you support an elite closed forum for obtaining TRs to such destinations... Hate to accuse you of playing both sides of the trail here, but it sounds like you believe its only selfish to keep TR locations from you but not from 'the masses'. -Josie PS I'll add that this is in no way a personal attack, because as I catch up on my forum reading it looks like things went a little downhill last week.
I can see what you're saying and I'll explain where I'm coming from here. I'm actually mildly agreeing - agreeing that people that do bother to be registered members on a forum like this are more likely to be avid outdoorspeople and not just your average city folk that goes just to Snow Lake or Si or Tiger or the like once in awhile. Also agreeing that more avid outdoorspeople are more likely to be respectful and responsible to "fragile" wilderness areas. I'm also going back to another sore subject that I think we should have mandatory registration to view and participate on this site. This would not be disallowing the masses to view the trip reports as anyone can register. But not everyone will register. More likely are only the avid outdoorspeople going to register. Make sense?!

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Backpacker Joe
Blind Hiker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 23956 | TRs | Pics
Location: Cle Elum
Backpacker Joe
Blind Hiker
PostSun Jul 27, 2003 10:24 pm 
Look, I don't buy all this stuff anyway. Only those that have NEVER benefited from someone elses advice, or help in the past can say that trip reports are bad. I have gotten trip advice, and given it many many times in my hiking past. since I've asked for it, and been helped by it, I feel it's only right to give in return. I think we are fooling ourselves if we think an area will be adversely effected because of a trip report posted here. I don't buy it. Most if not all of the people that would be willing to venture to my areas of interest based on a trip report WILL respect that area they have worked so hard to get to.
Quote:
I misunderstood and thought you were supporting the "long time members only" idea BJP suggested offhand. -Josie
Josie, my meaning by long time members were those people *interested* in getting the password and registering for the private area that would be the trip report site. The TrailBlazers have a website, AND a members only section that allow club members to post between themselves. TB

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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Backpacker Joe
Blind Hiker



Joined: 16 Dec 2001
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Location: Cle Elum
Backpacker Joe
Blind Hiker
PostSun Jul 27, 2003 10:29 pm 
Quote:
Last year I visited a lake that has no path around it, no campsite, no fire ring -- no evidence of any visitation by European explorers. It is in a spectacular setting with a major peak right above it. Ain't gonna tell because it don't need no more visitors. If ya wanna find such places, study the maps and find 'em -- they are out there all over the place
Rowena and Rebecca lakes are just like that! TB

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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MCaver
Founder



Joined: 14 Dec 2001
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MCaver
Founder
PostSun Jul 27, 2003 11:37 pm 
Slugman wrote:
Clearcutting has destroyed 1,000 places for every one hiked to death.
Amen, brother. vent.gif

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Al Cazar
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Al Cazar
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PostSun Jul 27, 2003 11:50 pm 
Sawyer wrote:
Last year I visited a lake that has no path around it, no campsite, no fire ring -- no evidence of any visitation by European explorers.
Au Contraire, I have seen several "secret" lakes recently with signs indicating that they have been claimed by the King of Spain. If the King is reading the reports, then who isn't? One of them had a muddy trail ringing the lake with horse prints and I was ordered off the premises by a knight in clanky armor. down.gif

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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
Member
PostMon Jul 28, 2003 1:35 am 
Quote:
Oh geez, here we go again with people wanting to keep their finds a secret and private.
I'm interested in how a location on a map, visible to anyone who can read a map, is a "secret" if it isn't popularized. It's still there. you can go there anytime you like.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: Lyle, WA
MtnGoat
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PostMon Jul 28, 2003 1:41 am 
Quote:
Seriously though, Chikamin isn't all that easy to get to and for this reason I don't lose much sleep over the pictures I've posted of it on the internet.
Difficulty has nothing to do with it. The state of the Enchantments is the object lesson for this. So a hard to get to place may go from little if any impact, to somewhere between Lk Annette or Ollalie and the situation in the granite areas of the enchantments. Even if it's less bad than this, and just gets sorta overrun like Robin lakes, this is an improvement?

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Jul 28, 2003 1:44 am 
Quote:
"I can think of three different, relatively unknown places right off the cuff that have seen increased impacts in the last two years due to this site alone." Was one of these Temple Canyon?
no.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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MtnGoat
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PostMon Jul 28, 2003 2:04 am 
Quote:
tell me you didn't intend comments like this to be a guilt trip? Quote: you go right ahead and write all the reports you want, and don't let any pair of feet you generate from them, bother you one bit. It would bother me, but that's just me.
You don't appear to agree you cause additional impact beyond your own visitation, or if you do that it's worth consideration, you don't seem to feel there are any considerations that I can see about posting reports beyond the mechanics of doing so, so how in the heck can I guilt trip you? I admit to some sarcasm, but at the end I make it clear these considerations are personal ones. If you take it as a guilt trip, then accept my apologies. My intent is to point out we may have responsibilities beyond our immediate footprint, extending to those we generate even if they aren't ours.
Quote:
what is with the fuzzy math? I clearly said my post came up 3rd. Where do you get off distorting things like that.
In my quick read this morning, I thought you meant there were two other reports already, not an "order of appearance" on a search report. my bad. Now that that's straightened out and you have properly chastised me for my "distorting", lets get to the meat of the issue. Did your report turn up, or not turn up? Did you write your report? Do you control wether or not you write a report? Yes, yes, and yes. The point here is telling us someone else wrote a different one, or a more detailed one, doesn't mean you're not responsible for *yours* and it's impacts. I'm not going to claim yours will break the bank, or give away the keys to heaven, but I will claim impacts which aren't even considered, don't mean there is no impact, and IMO, this should be considered when posting. I don't favor mandatory registration, or censorship of reports, or anything of the kind. I do expect people to use their heads and consciences to accept the responsibility for what they do without resorting to the "everybody does it" defense, however. You've used the "other people write them" argument, we have one poster who figures 1000 more places have been screwed up by logging, than by being pounded by boots. Somehow it appears the argument is then that the place that is being pounded to dust by boots either doesn't count or is only one place, instead of pointing out that the 1000 does not excuse the destruction of the 1 in any way. It's *all* something that should be prevented. No matter how you slice it, it's now 1001 places with damage, and one more place with low visitation that now has one more commercial. Don't feel like I'm singling you out as the worst or only person doing such reports, it's only because this issue came up in your thread that I was tempted into responding. There have been at least four other instances lately and all these comments apply to those and their authors as well. If was interested in commenting on every one, I'd have done so. You're just the lucky one this time. and another thing.....I have no idea where you come up with the Dan'l Boone stuff, self proclaimed or otherwise. Maybe you can illuminate me on your distortions on this one.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Allison
Feckless Swooner



Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: putting on my Nikes before the comet comes
Allison
Feckless Swooner
PostMon Jul 28, 2003 8:01 am 
I think the Dan Boone remark was directed at me because I once claimed to be able to use a compass or something like that.

www.allisonoutside.com follow me on Twitter! @AllisonLWoods
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jenjen
Moderatrix



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 7617 | TRs | Pics
Location: Sierra stylin
jenjen
Moderatrix
PostMon Jul 28, 2003 10:16 am 
I guess I don't read trip reports the way most people do. I search reports to find information about places I have already decided to go to. The trip reports I do post are to places that are already well known, and then the purpose is to give the information that I personally look for in a report. ie what conditions should I be expecting so I can plan accordingly. I actually think restricting trip reports to members would be a good idea. Its not like membership is restricted (obviously, cause I got in tongue.gif ). But most people just browsing looking for somewhere to go won't bother to sign up.

If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
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Larry
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Joined: 22 Feb 2003
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Location: Kitsap
Larry
Member
PostMon Jul 28, 2003 10:53 am 
Catwoman: I wrote this earlier in the thread: I certainly have no problem sharing any "secrets" with people, especially with people like you and others on this forum, Catwoman, who I know DO have the respect for those wonderful places. But, if I think an area is just TOO fragile for the "general public", then I'll only share those places by inviting you and others along to enjoy it. But then, you wrote: it IS being selfish because those that don't share seem to think it's ok if THEY visit these "private" places. But they just don't want others there. And no, I'm not buying the excuse of a place being too fragile to leak to the masses. It is just a lame excuse to try to validate someone wanting to keep a place all to themselves So, correct me if I'm wrong here...but I think that I stated clearly above that I AM willling to share even a fragile place with people who would be as good to the land as possible. So, I think that your statment they just don't want others there is invalid, at least in relation to my statement. Also, I think that your statement not buying the excuse of a place being too fragile to leak to the masses doesn't match up with your earlier post about showing common sense and respect for wilderness locations. I think that not leaking to the masses about a particularly fragile area DOES show common sense and respect. Again...I'm not saying to keep every "secret" I might have. But, I AM saying that I'm going to think about the respect I have for those locations that are particularly vulnerable before posting about them. I appreciate your dialog, Catwoman. So...I guess I'll not say anything like "your Mother wore work boots" or something like that... embarassedlaugh.gif I mean, I guess it's okay to disagree with me...but don't be surprised if I start pouting, and then you'll feel really bad, won't you? agree.gif

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