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MtnGoat
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 2:14 pm 
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"they must "earn the trust" -- oh, puhlease! "

Yup, that's right. If you want the benefit of my effort, research, and groundpounding, I use my own set of values to determine if I think you'll use that info *I've* worked for, for good or ill. I'm pretty sure you do just the same every day, or do you follow someone *elses* morals when making decisions?

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Benjamin
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 2:17 pm 
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Tom, I like your idea of returning in 3 to 5 year intervals to check the post-hidden-hikes condition.  I was in there the season before last, so it will be very interesting to see what kind of impact such a book might have.  Who knows, we may be pleasantly surprised.  Time will tell.
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Dslayer
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 2:30 pm 
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Very slowly I've started to figure out after reading the umpteenth thread like this, i.e. "not telling," that a lot of places that you folks like to go to are being overwhelmed by usage.  (Insert smilie with light bulb going on here)  I haven't really related to these arguments because most of the places I go-between Chinook Pass and the Goat Rocks-I rarely see anyone. Certainly there's signs of usage, but I can count the number of times on one hand over the past 11 years when I've shared any of the places that I fish with anyone else.  It's slowly dawned on me that where most of you  live-Puget Sound-is too damn close to the places you like to hike, fish and otherwise play.  I understand the passion some of you have when one of your favorite places is trashed or in some desecrated by idiots.  I consider myself fortunate to live in a place that gives me access to less visited country.

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"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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Randy
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 2:43 pm 
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Yup. Sounds like the logical thing to do. Visit those areas in 3-5 years and attribute any "increased" signs of impact to the book.

Web-sites, guide books, and newspaper articles all *can* cause adverse impacts to a particular spot; absolutely. Whether or not they do is next to impossible to determine let alone quantify in *most* cases.

Because of this, the best thing to do (if you're concerned about trampling, etc. of a particular area) is to keep a tight lip unless you have absolute control on where the information goes. Several people here have already mentioned this is the way they go about doing things. I support that stance completely; however, I am admittedly guilty of posting reports in the past that have been too forthcoming with sensitive information. I still kick myself for ever posting those reports.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 2:58 pm 
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What ya really need to do is establish control sites for damage assessment like the caving organization I used to volunteer with did. They'd set up standardized photos of areas with varying amounts of traffic, and note all conditions under which the photo was taken. Then after a period of time you retake the same photos in the exact same spots and bingo, an absolute record of any changes in condition at that precise location.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Tom
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 3:12 pm 
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I'm not saying it would be a scientific study but I think it would be enough to provide general indications of the book's impact.  I was planning to include another non-published hike or with similar difficulty, access, geographic location, scenery, etc. for comparison.
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Val Vita
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 3:38 pm 
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The photos would show the damage to the ground but what about the fish population in the lake? Who is doing that study on impact?
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Stefan
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 4:46 pm 
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And what about cairns?  I don't think the picture would be able to photograph all those cairns becuase the rock blends in with the other rock.....

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 4:49 pm 
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They blend in even better when scattered by a wayward boot... Ooops! I trip over those darned things at an amazing rate. I think they're a backcountry hazard. wink.gif

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Scrooge
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 5:38 pm 
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Pappy has said it. Tom has said it. MtnGoat has said it (although he often contradicts himself). None of us have exclusive rights to wilderness destinations. Our desire for a "pristine" experience is no more valid than someone else's desire for a paved nature trail in the same territory.

Some of us may feel that those special places, be they lakes or peaks or passes or waterfalls, should belong only to people willing to pay a price (that we define) to find them and to get there. A lot of other people feel that the right price includes a description in a guidebook. They're as right as we are.

Guidebook writers cater to that mass of people for a lot of reasons. Making money is not usually a significant one. Partly it's just the published author thing: being recognized for something they're good at. For guidebook authors it goes a step further. They have information that people want and they enjoy sharing it.

"100 Hikes" has been successful partly because it satisfys an immense demand, partly because of Harvey Manning's unique style (Ira did 80% of the surveying but Harvey did the write-ups). The guidebooks which have followed either duplicate the information, without Harvey's style, or they address a niche market, as Karen's "Hidden Hikes" does. "Hidden Hikes" is a good read that won't be read by many people. Fewer people still will follow the more difficult routes.

Getting to the Bathtub Lakes involves a difficult route (by the standards of the vast majority of hikers), whether along a mile of rugged ridge or up 1000' of boulder strewn gully. However, the people who do get there because they read about it in "Hidden Hikes" (or on this forum) have as much right to get there - and as good a right to their source of information - as we have to bemoan their presence and decry their guide.

The difference is: they can get what thay want, we can't.  eek.gif

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 5:54 pm 
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I'll be very interested if you can provide examples of where I've been contradicting myself. You seem pretty certain of it, so proof should be easy enough to come by!

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Tom
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 5:58 pm 
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Quote:
The photos would show the damage to the ground but what about the fish population in the lake? Who is doing that study on impact?

What fish? wink.gif  As I've already stated, I don't consider the fishing impact(s) to be all that relevant, particularly if we're talking about the "pristine" wilderness experience.  You worried about the fish?  Go plant more of 'em (assuming you can handle the consequences).  The impact of social trails and pollution are not necessarily reversible.
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 6:27 pm 
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s'long as the plant locations remain quiet and most fishing expeditions operate basically at random, the consequences are nicely dispersed.

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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Scrooge
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 6:52 pm 
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If "Hidden Hikes" has no other impact, it seems to have sparked a debate destined to bump the "Middle Fork closure" from the top spot on this forum's thread-length list.  agree.gif

Way to go, Karen.  smile.gif

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#19
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 7:23 pm 
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My original contention was that the problem has as much to do with the high population of this area as anything.  Singling out a new guidebook, that may have brisk sales initially, but will not likely ever reach a fraction of people that previous books have (and will continue to) seems unfair and simplistic.

Yes, some will see the Bathtub lakes as a destination and go there.  But WE are going everywhere - all the time.  We post routes and pictures on the web, we stock lakes with fish, help write guide books, we compete with our friends to bag more peaks, we fish high lakes, we whisper our secret routes to people we know to be responsible, we lead organized outings, we dayhike, backpack, travel cross country......

We are the problem and we aren't going away.  Least I hope not. biggrin.gif
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