[Newt]

I have been toying with the idea of joining the WTA. I feel that as far a orgs go they seem to have more of a hands on attitude and are more directly involved with the real world of trails. I pay for pass's & I buy a fishing liscense just like I do car tab. I pay my way regardless of if I have paid in some other manner. My thought was if I payed them my $ then it would help finance their work. Please don't give me any crap about fees. So to find out if I would have any voice in decisions that were made like endorsing Plan E of the MF ATM I shot them an email asking how they arrive at such indorsements. My question, I am considering becoming a member of WTA and have a question, As far as WTA endorsing Plan E, or any other endorsements, was this something that the membership voted on or a decision that was made by the Board of Directors, Corporate Partners, etc? I know that it is past comment time to respond to this but would like to know how WTA came by this endorsement. http://www.wta.org/~wta/cgi-bin/web10.pl?Advocacy+nw+nd+news65 Their reply, Thanks for your interest. Like all non-profit organizations, WTA has a Board of Directors. Our Board is advised by a series of Committees that concentrate on specific areas. I work with the Advocacy Committee, which decided to sign on to the Middle Fork Concept Plan, which you can find at this address: http://www.midfork.org/serve_URL?url_id=28 . Our Board looked at the Concept Plan and decided to endorse it. We decided to endorse Alternative E, since it is closest to the results of the Concept Plan. Our Board is a deliberative body that is accountable to our members. We use our magazine, website, and email list serves to keep in touch with our members. The best way to get your voice heard is to become a member and/or get involved as a volunteer--preferably both! I hope this answers your question. Please feel free to drop me a line at any time. So I'm wondering if there are any WTA members here that can say they have had the opportunity to voice their feelings/opinions on this and other issues they endorse. Do you have input as to which trails they maintain? How do they know what you want and how you feel? Thanks, NN

[Damian]

When WTA had their bulletin board they sometimes censored my posts when I expressed views that were contrary to their own positions on various issues. They deny this, but I am here to tell you it is true. I sent emails to Elizabeth Lunney to discuss this practice and she failed to return them. She also failed to return phone calls. Look at the way they endorsed Plan E for the Mid Fk and ask yourself if this is the type of organization you want to support. I am sure they do good work, but I will not support them because of my first hand experiences which lead to my withdrawing from WTA.

[-lol-]

[Tom]

2drx, I assume you are a WTA member. Did they ask for your opinion or feedback on the midfork proposal? I don't know as I'm not a member, but if they didn't, how would they know if they are speaking for their membership? I think that's the issue being raised, among others. I don't believe they did (nor did any of the other so called organizations that "supported" alternative E), and that's one point I highlighted in my response to the forest service.

[-lol-]

[Advocacy Advocate]

Some of you folks sound as if you think that if WTA polled its members, the choice would NOT be Alternative E, but the choice YOU want. Maybe they have a good reason for choosing that Alternative over others. Perhaps they thought of something you didn’t. Did you ever stop to think that maybe they DO listen to their members, and the majority ARE in favor of Alternative E? Its highly likely some members aren’t in favor of Alternative E; but you should know by now in life, not everyone can agree on everything. WTA decisions follow its Mission Statement. WTA does is not a group of renegades specifically working against the members of the NW Hiking Ikonboard. Are any of you members of their (or anyone elses’) Advocacy team? In December, the members of Advocacy teams of WTA as well as those of The Mountaineers and likely other organizations such as the Access Fund and local bicycle clubs were invited to attend a question and answer session regarding the future of the Trail Park Pass. There were Forest Service personnel from all over the state at the meeting; FS finance people, rangers, trail bosses, etc. all there to receive opinions and listen to alternative ideas. If you weren’t invited, that simply means you’re not an active member of any of the local Advocacy groups and so now continue to wonder and ask each other questions about the Trail Park pass. If you’re not registered with any of the Advocacy groups, yet you continue to moan about their practices, then it seems as if you’re simply embittered wallflowers mad about not being asked to the dance, even though you are the one who refused the initial invitation. Rather than complaining and moaning and gnashing your teeth about an organization and continuing to point fingers at them simply because they chose to not support YOUR individual opinion, why don’t you join an Advocacy group and get/give some input? You won’t always win, but maybe you won’t always lose. Do you know the position of the Sierra Club and The Mountaineers advocacy groups regarding the Middle Fork? Maybe THEY’RE the ones who will ruin it for you – afterall, they’re bigger organizations. Seems any time that someone, or some organization tries to do something good, there’s always some faction – usually those who didn’t get their way - who drags them through the mud and to the lynching tree.

[MCaver]

I am a member of several different organizations (WTA, Sierra Club, Mountaineers, NPCA, etc) and I'm pretty much letting my membership expire in all of them. The national organizations do nothing but beg for money and I'm sick of it, particualrly when they only partly reflect my positions. I respect the work that the local organizations do locally (trail maintenance, etc) but I don't really feel represented by them. They are all pretty much representative democracies, just like Congress. And like Congress, they have pretty much decided they know what I want more than I know myself and have become a bit self-serving. I will support the WTA's trail maintenance efforts by volunteering, and I'll probably go to a few Mountaineer photography seminars as well, but I have no desire to be a member of these organizations any longer.

[MtnGoat]

The WTA got to be quite self serving in it's manipulation of it's message board. They have every right to edit their board as they see fit, Damian's opinions however were not edited because of abusive content, but because of his stance on issues the WTA did not agree with and his way of making a good point. They made it fully clear abusive content would be censored, they never said the WTA Politburo would also censor ideas they didn't agree with. As owners of the board it was obviously within their rights, but by not making it clear the board would be censored with respect to ideas as well as abuse, they were very underhanded.

[Damian]

I don't mind supporting an organization that does not support all of my views. I have no problem with WTA supporting Option E. Most posters on this board have not complained about the position WTA has taken on the Mid Fk as much as the process they used to arrive at their conclusion. An organization does not need to be a democracy for me to join. But they must not censor reasonably stated opposing views and they must return calls and e-mails of their members if they want my $.

[MtnGoat]

"Ok, Chris, you like lumber. I fail to see how that justifies the current FS practice mentioned above." It certainly doesn't justify public payment for logging roads or other infrastructure placed on public land for private buisness, I agree. Costs related to getting timber should be borne by lumber companies, and thus by their customers who choose those products. However, the statement that we get nothing from logging public land is simply false. We get products. We also get damage, which must be addressed, yet it is managable. "There are other sources of lumber than public land, and certainly better ways to handle private use of it, extraction or not. " There certainly are other sources, but we'll have to disagree here because I don't mind them using the small piece that's theoretically mine to supply me with that lumber I like so much. Since I've not been given title to my little chunk of public land explicitly, I'll have to support the use of some chunk somewhere. And at the same time support not cutting, somewhere else! I just don't think all public land should be entirely off limits because as a member of the public myself, I support properly implemented multiple use. Of course, properly implemented means many things to many people.

[Newt]

I'm not trying to bash any org. I have high admiration for any that does volunteer work. In this case it's WTA for their trail main. program that keeps things neat and tidy for those of us who just use them. What I'm trying to find out is: Does the WTA state in email, magazine or there website that there is an issue that they would like to plan on taking a stand on in way or another and ASK for input. For example:? There is an issue regarding the MF ATM. We, the board of directors, would like to advocate one of the alternatives. In order to represent the membership we, the board of directors, need your input as to your thoughts on this issue. Pleas let us know. Now if I don't respond then tough s$#% for me. But I expect to be asked. To be a part of an avocery group is not the answer I'm looking for. This sucks. It's more special interest than anything. As far as the trail pass issue with the FS that should have been public notice such as the MF ATM with the organizations telling their membership of such a meeting. I'm not asking if they expect me to volunteer my opinion on such matter. I can do that at any time. From today's reply to my reply to their reply I feel that if I were to have a say in any matters such as these I would have to submit it on my own. I would not be asked for my opinion directly. So now I have thee impression of an org that makes decisions for me without knowing or caring how I feel. Decisions that I am beginning to feel are decisions for themselves. Which trail to maintain is far different that backing which trails will stay open, closed or built. My reply: Thank you for your reply So are you saying that the members were asked/notified via magazine, website, email what their opinions were so that WTA could take a position on this issue. I'm just wondering how WTA would know how I feel and what my opinions are on different issues including which trails are maintained before decisions are made in my behalf representing me as a member. Are they assumed or would I be asked somehow for my input? Their reply: We keep our members informed of issues as they develop through our magazine, website, etc. First and foremost, we have an organizational mission statement that guides our decisions. We also welcome the input of our members, and take it into account in our deliberations on issues. For instance, our membership was very active in our user fee position. So if you join, please follow the magazine carefully and drop me a line. As to trails that are maintained, we work with the land management agencies to get a sense of what work is needed on their districts. That said, we have a keen interest in what our members think needs to be done, and we always welcome input in that area. Please contact our trail maintenance program at wta@seanet.com with your suggestions. Here's our mission statement: Washington Trails Association is a volunteer-driven, non-profit organization working since 1966 to preserve, enhance and promote hiking opportunities in Washington state through collaboration, education, advocacy and trail maintenance. We believe that in addition to recreational value, our natural areas provide spiritual, economic and environmental benefits for all people. We are committed to preserving this rich heritage for current and future generations. Feeling I have not got a direct answer to my direct question I will assume they do not solicit input from their member but rely on you doing it voluntarily. Which stands to reason, It's a volunteer org. Sorry for the long one I'm done with it NN

[polarbear]

[Newt]

I forgot to ask.... 2drx, how do they solicit your opinion. Thanks, NN

[Allison]

OK, I am not in the position to get in the middle of a big WTA debate insofar as I still have a pretty good relationship with them and I am still part of the magazine, but have opinions of my own....but....I think it is best to look at WTA more as an organization focused on trail maintenance and less on other advocacy issues. In order to avoid getting my butt into hot water, that is all I'm going to say.

[Steve]

So does anyone know or have an inkling when the proposed road closure will take effect. I need to make one or two final trips up there before they close it.