[#19]

The recent accidents on Ranier and Hood got me thinking about what determines if one is labeled "experienced" by the press in these situations. I am not here to argue whether these people were or were not. And I'm sick of people "reminding" everyone that carrying a cell phone doesn't garauntee your saftey. Anyone that would think that would make other mistakes as well. But, I've have heard a lot of comments on TV and radio in the last 24, and I'm wondering how they come up with a determination on who is experiencedand who isn't. More to the point, how would you determine if someone is experienced? At what point does someone go from novice to sage? I know this is a hiker-site, but I believe that many here have tied into a rope, traveled x-country, etc, enough to answer that - and to wear the "experienced" label. I thought of myself as experienced after 5 yrs of getting out - now after more than 25 yrs I realize I wasn't. How many summits, x-country trips, miles, does it take for someone to be experienced?

[McPilchuck]

A good question Pappy, I would say, being sensible of knowing ones own limitations is the prudence of outdoor/mountainous adventure. And experience only comes with being out there and learning from others. But no matter the amount of skill or experience one has or can obtain, sometimes accidents will happen, and as a friend of mine who has many 1st ascents (Terror, Roman Nose, Willis Wall, ect) says, "mountains do not care if you live or die, you are just a speck of flesh & bone and like an ant to and upon mountains." And I concur...

[Stefan]

Pappy. The problem in getting information is that you get it from people at the newsdesk. These people are truly unexperienced outdoorspeople. Every single bit of news has at least one bit of false information to it and/or sensationalization to it. Remember that. This includes reports on nonoutdoors activities too. Question news and take it with a grain of salt. They are not always correct.

[Karen]

Many reporters are not outdoors people ... that is why you often hear of "hikers" dying from falls into crevasses as opposed to "climbers". Also, I noticed that several newspeople referred to a crevasse as a "crevice" and there is a world of difference. However, they are doing the best they can to bring us the news and if they don't know the difference between a crevice and a crevasse it's because they haven't been on a big mountain themselves. As for knowing one's limits and knowing where that fine line between experience and inexperiences lies .... that comes from time, experiences in the outdoors, and sometimes just plain luck. Many people over-estimate their abilities or rely too heavily on their gear/equipment but we should never forget that mountains are unforgiving and don't take sides. The mountains do not have a sense of ethics ... that is something we impose upon ourselves. I've been on the summits of some of these volcanoes and concluded I don't belong there. I've never been totally comfortable on snow, especially glaciers and avoid them now (I'm happier on rock). I was inexperienced when I climbed Mount Baker and followed blindly along to the summit. Luck. After taking a climbing course and realizing how difficult it was (for me at least) to set up a crevasse rescue I decided I didn't belong there. I didn't want to be responsible for the life or death of someone on my rope. Again, it is an individual decision. Each much weigh his/her strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly, be prepared for the worst, and cross your fingers because sometimes it just plain luck and an accident is not the result of something you did or did not do. Karen

[MounTAIN Woman]

Pappy you raise a provocative question. It is good to see real dialogue, and not grandstanding like I've seen on other bulletin boards. I agree that we need to be wary of the media, who want to sell stories, and will often sensationalize, or just not know and just plain get it wrong. I have been involved in projects that were followed by the media, and I totally agree with Stefan that within the story lies the truth, but you have to dig through a lot of misinformation. What I don't want to see is a standardization of "experience". Imagine a state-run Mounaineers, where you had to pass courses, get your papers stamped for certain climbs, and only after a long but well documented apprenticeship could you be called a Master of Sport, and climb any mountain you wanted! This was the old Russian system, under the Communist regime. I would rather police our own, and like Karen said, we need to know and accept our own limits, and get education to fill in the gaps.

[catwoman]

I've always interpretted the news' definition of "experienced" to mean they've been out at least a few times. Yes, I realize that "a few" does not make you experienced, but I just figure that's what the news thinks. Or perhaps someone who's gone a few times considers themselves "experienced" and that's what they tell the media. I've never taken the news' definition of "experienced" to heart because it's all relative. Back when I used to skydive and there might be a skydive accident, the media would say someone with 50 jumps was "experienced". In actuality, that person is still just beginning to learn and that inexperience in a particular situation may have been a part of what cost them their life. BUT, because they've jumped before and they've jumped 50 times, the media thinks they're experienced. Anyway, don't take what the media says to heart. They will say what they think about what they don't know anything about, or they'll say what stirs everyone up.

[polarbear]

Circumstances can change so quickly in the outdoors, be it the weather or that kick off your hike breakfast burrito you had at Moe's Diner which finally catches up with you. I'm sure just about every hiker has ran into the situation where they start up a slope that continually gets steeper and then when they turn around to head down they realize that it's alot more difficult to climb down than up. I mostly hike book-trails in sunny weather. I don't consider myself experienced, though I'm alot more experienced than I was when I first started hiking. It seems like no matter what type of accident happens now, there is always an accompanying article regarding the cost of the rescue--ironically, sometimes the cost of the rescue sometimes seems to get more prominence than the fact that the person is still alive http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/72923_cost01.shtml

[#19]

Friday, while plunge-stepping down a very steep semi-wooded slope, I went in thigh deep with one leg. My momentum threw me forward and I slid head (arms) first into a tree 10' down slope. Not much time to arrest. I could have easily fallen on my axe or hit the tree with my head. Accidents happen. Know about the media being sensational and uninformed. I was curious how you (mostly experienced) people know if someone else is?

[JimK]

This is a tough one but let me add my $.02 worth. To me, experience is having the right equipment, knowing your personal limits, and not exceeding them. I have seen hikers at Snow Lake shivering in soaked blue jeans and hypothermic. I have seen hikers with no packs heading up Mt Pilchuck with shorts, t-shirts, no extra clothing or a light near dusk in October. I am amazed more people are not killed on "easy" hikes like these. On many occasions I have turned around near a summit when I was not comfortable with the route and/or conditions. A good example of this is the recent report of Mike Collins on Ovrcoat Peak. He turned around 30' from the top. He was not comfortable with bad icy conditions and had a set turnaround time. He may have been able to go around the mountain and summit and come down in the dark. Experience told him that it was time to head down. I have done many peaks solo and I accept the risk. I am also much more likely to turn around if any doubts arise. I carry enough equipment to spend a night if necessary, leave detailed info on my route, and do not deviate from it. Scrambling on rock or snow can be dangerous. Some accidents are outside of our control. The key for me is to prepare for the worst and not to go into a place which is beyond my comfort level.

[IBEX]

It would be hard for me to say if anyone else is experienced. But I feel I am experienced after over forty years hiking and climbing in the Washington Cascades. Yet experience alone gives no guarantee of a safe outing. Take for instance this past weekend. I was skiing up the Ruth Creek trail, alone as usual, when I came to a short, narrow down hill pitch. I was unable to check up at the bottom were the snow patch ended. So, when my skis ground to a stop in the dirt and rocks, my body was thrown forward to be smashed between the fifty pound pack and a rather large boulder. Frantically I ejected from the skis and unbuckled myself from the cumbersome pack. I quickly sprang to my feet only to be laid back out in the mud from the traumatic shock from the excruciating pain in my side. It seemed like forever that I laid there soaking up the muddy water and thinking of a plan on how to get back to the car. It would have been nice if a group of hikers came by to carry me out or at least take my pack. But, I always go into the mountains Friday night so I wouldn’t meet other hikers on the trail; and that plan was working just fine. Eventually I pumped enough blood back into my brain to stumble to my feet. But, when I bent over to gather up my gear, I succumbed to the horrible pain and down I went again. I concluded that something was definitely not right. I just couldn’t get myself to leave thousands of dollars of hiking and climbing gear along the Ruth Creek Trail. So, I tried dragging my pack. But, that didn’t work. Finally I propped It up on a snow bank and slipped the beast on without bending over. Weaving and stumbling like a drunk, I shuffled back out to the car. Three hours later I checked myself into the Mt Vernon Emergency Ward. Two points to this true story. First, the measure of experience is irrelevant when you don’t choose wisely. You have to learn from and apply the experience for it to be of any value. Secondly, throughout the whole unpleasant evening, though the accident may have been life threatening, I never considered that I wouldn’t make it back out. It is that positive mental attitude, and calm reasoning during adverse conditions that is the true measure of experience.

[Dslayer]

Many good words of wisdom in these posts-I've been doing this stuff since "who flung the chuck," (I just finished all 17 Sackett books-had to throw that in) and the bottom line is that 'poop' happens...that the most thoroughly planned outing can change in a second due to weather, an accident, a mistep, etc. Having the wisdom and common sense to avoid putting yourself in a bad spot is a key, but then having some presence about you, Ibex's story is a great example, in the event of trouble is equally important. More than once I've given up on a hike when I reach a point where the conditions, usually looking down a hillside beneath an icy slope and wondering just how far I'll roll if I slip, maybe aren't that bad, but I've had to consider the ramifications of an accident in rough country by myself. Back in the days of the mountain men, you were considered to be an 'old timer' if you survived one season in the mountains-some of those old timers would have been teenagers. There's more than a few of us here...but more than one mountain man, the best of the best, just disappeared and were never heard from again.

[#19]

Ibex, I doubt that I am the only one that would like to know: how are you doing now?

[IBEX]

The X-rays showed lungs OK and no compound fractures; just a few cracks. The ER Doc had a fourteen syllable name for the soft ends of the ribs separating from the bone. I'm taking it easy and sucking down Ibuprofen. If all goes well I could be back and bagging by Independence Day. Coughing is a bummer and it has been really hard to keep from laughing as hard as I want.

[Stefan]

Sounds like a hairline fractured rib to me from what you describe Ibex.

[Mike Collins]

Do you guys know what a compound fracture is? It is when the bone is protruding through the surface of the skin. You wouldn't need an x-ray to determine that.