[polarbear]

The reason I think my pass is helping pay for the logging ban is that a ranger told me their budget had been cut from 30+million to maybe 13 million due to the logging ban. To me that means less rangers, less trail maintenance, and me paying $35 for the pass. I know it is not a direct translation, and I know the pass is Congress imposed, but if my pass $ are going to hiking area maintenance than there is some relationship there. As far as old growth vs. new growth, this article I posted the link to awhile back has another slant on it. http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2001/11/05/story2.html

[MCaver]

Good article, PB. Thanks for posting it.

[Timber Cruiser]

mattp Conversion of lowland forests to farms, cities, highways and suburbs has occured over the past 150 years. What lowland "old-growth" remains is usualy due only to access problems (couldn't be logged) or designation as parks, wilderness, etc. I don't know of any group or private enterprise that now advocates the use of any remaining "old-growth". The article that polarbear provided a link to backs my point that there really is no market for large timber any more. The state forest and fish rules passed a couple of years ago along with land protected for spotted owls and murrelets will actually result in the creation of more lowland late- succesional ("old-growth") forests on commercial forest land. Some level of cedar theft has always occured. It's a hard crime to police, even on private land that is locked up. It got so bad in the 70's that now cedar products going down the highway have to be clearly marked with a permit or they are subject to being pulled over by the State Patrol. It's also hard to tell when it's a legitimate sale since it usually involves scattered logs, or trees. A lot of this material is salvaged from old logged over land. Some logs and stumps have been cut two or three seperate times over the years as the supply becomes scarce and the quality standards are relaxed as far as slope of grain and knots.The amazing thing about today's small log market is that a second growth cedar log (small end 6"+ diameter) commands a higher price (per thousand board feet) for siding and fencing products than shake bolts cut from "old-growth' cedar. If anyone thinks their measly $35 check is ofsetting the lost revenue to the F.S.from timber sales, think about the gas tax and school levys that we are being asked to approve to make up for the lost timber harvest tax that once flowed to counties, libraries, schools, fire and taxing districts.

[Brian Curtis]

[Timber Cruiser]

You are right Brian but this was a temporary fix. It runs through 2006. Since it is based on funds provided by congress and not timber receipts, how long before eastern states look at it as western welfare and elliminate it?

[Scrooge]

TC - Solid as your facts appear, I've got a problem with your statements about the economics of old-growth cutting. Somebody has spent a lot of money fighting the spotted owl protection legislation, and it wasn't the owls (who don't give a hoot about protecting their own species). Somebody continues to spend money every time it's suggested that a new area needs protection. I'm sure it's true that the lumber mills are no longer geared to turning the big logs into lumber, but it doesn't matter. There are plenty of entrepreneurs out there who would be quite happy to cut the old-growth giants and ship them to Japan for pulp. If it's not Weyerhaeuser, specifically, it does have to be the big timber companies because it takes deep pockets to fund the kind of legal and lobbying efforts that have been made - and are continuing. For my part, I don't care much more about the owls than they do themselves. I do care about the trees. I think there should be a complete ban on all old-growth cutting, at least in the lower fortyeight. (Someone more knowledgeable than I will have to figure out what's right for Alaska). The big trees can't be replaced, not in any meaningful period of time. To produce an old-growth forest, with trees 10' in diameter and 40' apart is the work of centuries, not years. We have a few patches left. Let's just keep them.