Forum Index > Photography Talk > scanned film vs digital cameras - test results
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WTM
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PostFri May 07, 2004 8:13 am 
For you techies who still have any interest in the debate over film vs digital, here is a site that does some great tests. Lots of fun. http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/498472.html I just bought a digital but plan to carry my analog kit too. Digital hasn't quite swept the field yet.

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MCaver
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PostFri May 07, 2004 10:54 am 
Most of the pros I've talked to and read about still use slide film, then scan it with a slide scanner. After that, it's all digital -- from editing to printing. Most of them seem to be waiting for digital cameras to surpass the estimated 20mp of a scanned slide before they switch.

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Far Fig Newton
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PostFri May 07, 2004 10:56 am 
Have you talked to any cons lately?

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Sore Feet
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PostFri May 07, 2004 11:26 am 
The crux of this arguement is that you need a really really good scanner to get the quality to surpass digital shots from film. For those of us who can't afford those kind of toys, digital supplies a cheaper alternative that produces almost as good results. One thing I also notice there is that they're comparing an 8x10 with a 300D Raw, which isn't exactly a fair comparison, since a), it's unprocessed, and can be cleaned up to be just as sharp as the 8x10, and b), it's not a pro-level camera, where as something like the Hasselblad H1 with a Kodak DCS Pro Digital back is. I've read and seen comparisons of 4x5 and 8x10 negatives against the 14-20 megapixel medium format cartridges, and they're easily as good. I've also read of people who are making enlargements up to like 4x6 feet from the 300D and Sigma SD10 by using advanced interpolation algorithms, so we're pretty much on the teetering point right here. I imagine within 5 years, we'll have a 35mm body that'll shoot better than 8x10s.

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WTM
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PostFri May 07, 2004 3:47 pm 
------------ Sore Feet stated:
Quote:
The crux of this arguement is that you need a really really good scanner to get the quality to surpass digital shots from film. For those of us who can't afford those kind of toys, digital supplies a cheaper alternative that produces almost as good results
---------------- It's true that you need a really good scanner to scan 35mm film so it will surpass digital but you don't need that good a scanner to get 4x5 to surpass digital results. An Epson 2450 or 3200 will work just fine for this. --------------- Sore Feet referred to pro digital cameras like: ..... Kodak DCS Pro Digital back..... ---------------- I'd love to have one. How much would that be costing me? How would it work for backpacking? ------------------------- Sore Feet says:
Quote:
I've read and seen comparisons of 4x5 and 8x10 negatives against the 14-20 megapixel medium format cartridges, and they're easily as good. I've also read of people who are making enlargements up to like 4x6 feet from the 300D and Sigma SD10 by using advanced interpolation algorithms, so we're pretty much on the teetering point right here. I imagine within 5 years, we'll have a 35mm body that'll shoot better than 8x10s.
------------------------ "I've read that...." "I've also read that...." "I imagine that....." Looks pretty conjectural to me. But assuming you are right and 35mm digital will surpass 8x10 in 5 years (i.e. 375 megapixels) then at least for the next 2 years or so I will still stick with my 4x5 for backpacking. Maybe longer - since those 400 megapixel cams will probably be pretty expensive when they first come out. Maybe I can hold out for 3 years.

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PostFri May 07, 2004 8:12 pm 
WTM, if I looked the correct product up, the Kodak Pro Digital Back will cost you a cool $12,000. The Hassy H1 body itself is ~$2,000. You're definately not messing around with this outfit. eek.gif

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WTM
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PostFri May 07, 2004 8:38 pm 
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WTM, if I looked the correct product up, the Kodak Pro Digital Back will cost you a cool $12,000. The Hassy H1 body itself is ~$2,000.
Yea. Somehow I am not surprized. Thanks for the info. My second hand 4x5 and second hand wide angle lens total about $1,000. Sometimes it makes sense to be behind the times.

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hikermike
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PostFri May 07, 2004 10:13 pm 
I use mostly digital camera mainly because of weight and I try to ultra backpack, which is a "religion" requiring rules. I still miss a lot of things available with film. Instant photos,(i.e., push the trigger and the pix is taken instantly, not 1-3 secs later), good flash, proper use of filters which is a BIG issue! Also durability and cost. Quality of lenses, the problem of parallax and pincusioning with digital cuz of the size of the ccd's Also the ultimate topic of archiving, will this or that format or media still be around in 5, 10 or 20 years?

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Sore Feet
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PostSat May 08, 2004 12:41 am 
WTM wrote:
Looks pretty conjectural to me. But assuming you are right and 35mm digital will surpass 8x10 in 5 years (i.e. 375 megapixels) then at least for the next 2 years or so I will still stick with my 4x5 for backpacking. Maybe longer - since those 400 megapixel cams will probably be pretty expensive when they first come out. Maybe I can hold out for 3 years.
Part of it is conjectural, part of it is second hand. There have been pictures posted at the forums at dpreview.com of the 4x6 foot enlargements I mentioned, and they look incredible. And I'm most definitely not encouraging dumping large format films, I'd like to get a setup myself one day. But, you're not going to need a 400 megapixel sensor to get high quality posters, because even the best printers can't achieve the detail that can be seen on a computer screen, or on a negative. And when I say I think within 5 years, we'll see digital surpass most film, I mean affordably. Something like the DCS Pro back ALREADY surpasses the detail of a scanned 645 negative. We'll see camera bodies in the ~$1000 (ot less) price range with the detail and resolving ability of todays $7-10,000 digitals.

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WTM
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PostSat May 08, 2004 9:44 pm 
Looks like we've changed the subject a bit
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even the best printers can't achieve the detail that can be seen on a computer screen, or on a negative.
It is true that transmissive media (like monitors and film transparencies) have a better color gamut than reflective media (like inkjet prints) but as far as resolution goes - inkjets have way more resolution than computer monitors. Most computer monitors are about 72 dpi while inkjet printers can print at better than 300 dpi (the new Epson 4000 specs say 2880 x 1440 dpi). 300 dpi is generally used as an optimal res for inkjets because "people can't detect resolutions higher than that". 300 dpi is industry standard for hi quality photographic prints. Now, for each square inch of inkjet print that you want to make (at 300 dpi) you need about 90,000 pixels in your camera sensor (300 x 300 = 90,000). So this is the max (hi quality) print size you would expect from various megapix cams: 2 MP camera = 22 sq" = approx 4" x 5" print 3 MP camera = 33 sq" = approx 5" x 7" print 4 MP camera = 44 sq" = approx 5.5" x 7.5" print 5 MP camera = 55 sq" = approx 6.5" x 8.5" print 6 MP camera = 66 sq" = approx 7" x 9" print
Quote:
There have been pictures posted at the forums at dpreview.com of the 4x6 foot enlargements I mentioned, and they look incredible.
Looks to me like (using 90,000 pix/square inch) to get a 4' x 6' poster at 300 dpi you would need a 311 megapixel camera. You would need only a 78 megapix camera for a 4' x 6' poster if you were willing to make do with a 150 dpi print.

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Tom
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PostSat May 08, 2004 10:49 pm 
Yeah, whatever. Megapixels aren't the whole story. It's the quality of the pixels that matter, not necessarily the quantity. Quality pixels can be res-ed up.

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Sore Feet
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PostSun May 09, 2004 12:16 am 
^ What Tom said. agree.gif 300 dpi is almost excessive too, most people that I've talked with who print their own images (I get mine done at a lab presently...once I get a good printer, the smaller ones will be done at home) feel that 240, or less in some cases, is plenty. Just out of curiosity, anyone know how big a negative you need to get the resolution of a picture from a 300 megapixel camera printed at 300 dpi? As I said before, I have nothing against film (except print film at least guns.gif ), but digital just has more flexibility.

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PostSun May 09, 2004 11:24 am 
Darn, here I am still trying to get the best hi-fi out ofo my turntable with tube amplifier and gold plated speaker connectors and now I have to look at updating my camera? huh.gif

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PostSun May 09, 2004 11:39 am 
Sore Feet:
Quote:
Just out of curiosity, anyone know how big a negative you need to get the resolution of a picture from a 300 megapixel camera printed at 300 dpi?
I don't know what this question means. But if you mean: "How big a negative do you need to get 300 MP of info", then the answer depends of how deeply you scan the negative. If you scan an 8" x 10" negative at 3200 dpi you will get 375 MP of info. So it looks like you could scan an 8" x 10" at about 2500 dpi and get 300 MP of info. You could get 300 MP of info out of a 4" x 5" negative if you could scan it at 11,000 dpi. But (according to the URL cited at the top of the thread) there is only 210 MP of potential info available in a 4x5 neg no matter how good the scanner. There is 835 MP of potential info in an 8 x 10 neg if you have a scanner capable of getting it out. The long and short of it is you can get 300 MP out of any neg bigger than approx 5" x 7". The bigger the neg - the lower the scan res you need to get the 300 MP out. Tom:
Quote:
Yeah, whatever. Megapixels aren't the whole story. It's the quality of the pixels that matter, not necessarily the quantity. Quality pixels can be res-ed up.
Darn! Looks like I just wasted $1,000 on a 5MP cam. I could have just bought a 1 MP and rezzed it up!

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Tom
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PostSun May 09, 2004 12:50 pm 
WTM wrote:
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Yeah, whatever. Megapixels aren't the whole story. It's the quality of the pixels that matter, not necessarily the quantity. Quality pixels can be res-ed up.
Darn! Looks like I just wasted $1,000 on a 5MP cam. I could have just bought a 1 MP and rezzed it up!
If you just spent $1,000 on a 5 MP digicam, you wasted money 'cause you paid too much. tongue.gif The Minolta A1, one of the top 5 MP digicams on the market can be had for around $575 delivered. I never said you could res up a 1 MP image to 5 MP. What I implied was the quality of the pixels determines how much you can res up. The problem with more megapixels is that UNLESS the size of the sensor increases, you just get more photosites (pixels) shoved into the same sensor area, and the quality of the pixels decreases due to more noise and blooming. That's why the 4 MP Canon G3 is considered by many to be equal or superior to the 5 MP Canon G5. It's also why you can make beautiful enlargements from a "lame-o" 3MP or 4MP DSLR like the Canon D30 or 1D due to a sensor is about 10x the size of a 5 MP or 8 MP non-DSLR like the Minolta A1 and A2.

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