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Brian Curtis Trail Blazer/HiLaker
Joined: 16 Dec 2001 Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics Location: Silverdale, WA |
mike wrote: | Come on, the books are just information. Information in and of itself is neither good nor bad, it just is |
Guide books aren't just information, they are information presented with the express purpose of leading people to backcountry destinations. The more successful the guidebook, the more people end up at those destinations.
Because I agree with BPJ, I'll chime in on PK's questions:
Quote: | Do you own guide books? |
Yes
No
Quote: | How did you learn of all these places you love so dearly? |
I spend a lot of time studying maps. But let me expand on the above. Back in the seventies I was new at at this trip planning business and I pulled out the 100 Hikes book and planned a trip. When we got to the trailhead the cars were parked down the road an incredible distance and the lake was absolutely swarming with people. You can't believe the numbers of people. That was the last time I used a guide book to plan a hike. I did read them so I could learn what places to avoid, but that's all I used 'em for after that. If you could have seen the impacts those guide books directly caused you'd be amazed. Now times have changed. We have a plethora of guide books and the internet and all sorts of information is spread all over the place. But as I've mentioned elsewhere in this forum, I'd rather go someplace I know absolutely nothing about. Those are the places that are the most intriguing and rewarding.
Guide books have their place. I think they were helpful in their green bonding mission. But guide book authors and users need to be aware of the downsides of these books.
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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Riverside Laker Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2004 Posts: 2818 | TRs | Pics
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With many thoughtless people spreading the word on the internet about way-cool places, we have a bigger problem now. At least those old guidebook writers checked with managers to help reduce impact in sensitive areas.
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Slugman It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
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Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:15 pm
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What has hurt the Alpine Lakes is the fact that millions of people live within a one to two hour drive of most starting points. Guidebooks help spread people out if anything, especially now when the "100 hikes" series divides the state into 5 or more books, meaning there are hundreds and hundreds of listed hikes. People are going to hike, and if they don't go to one place, they go somewhere else.
How come nobody thinks of themselves going somewhere as impact, only when other people go there? If anybody is so worried about impact, they should stay home themselves, that would be one less person sitting on heather at XYZ lake.
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Brian Curtis Trail Blazer/HiLaker
Joined: 16 Dec 2001 Posts: 1696 | TRs | Pics Location: Silverdale, WA |
Slugman wrote: | Guidebooks help spread people out if anything, especially now when the "100 hikes" series divides the state into 5 or more books, meaning there are hundreds and hundreds of listed hikes. People are going to hike, and if they don't go to one place, they go somewhere else. |
This is so patently untrue I don't even know where to start. I've seen the before and after. Plus, it isn't hundreds of destinations. People concentrate on certain types of hikes. The longer hikes, for instance, often don't have the guide book effect.
Quote: | How come nobody thinks of themselves going somewhere as impact, only when other people go there? If anybody is so worried about impact, they should stay home themselves, that would be one less person sitting on heather at XYZ lake. |
What on earth gives you this idea? How do you know that nobody thinks of themselves going somewhere as impact? I suppose I can interpret that as meaning you don't think of yourself causing negative impacts, but you said nobody and that is awfully all encompassing. I am acutely aware of my impacts. I've also never advocated that people should not use wilderness which is the only way I can see where your suggestion people stay home exposes any sort of hypocrisy. Guide books have come out, newspaper articles have been written, internet postings have been made and the use in some destinations has been increased and resource damage has been caused. Certainly, there are other factors, and certainly the guide books have done some good, too. But there is a real cause and effect there that cannot be denied.
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
that elitist from silverdale wanted to tell me that all carnes are bad--Studebaker Hoch
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Tom Admin
Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 17853 | TRs | Pics
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Tom
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Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:46 am
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Brian Curtis wrote: | The longer hikes, for instance, often don't have the guide book effect. |
I'd tend to agree with that, as well as longer drive times. There are of course a few exceptions like the enchantments, but there's nothing like a long drive and 18+ mile hike to weed out a bit of visitation.
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#19 Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 2197 | TRs | Pics
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#19
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Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:15 am
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Brian Curtis wrote: | Because I agree with BPJ, I'll chime in on PK's questions: |
Tazz&Mania wrote: | Do you own guide books? How did you learn of all these places you love so dearly? |
Sorry Brian, not my questions.
I asked, Quote: | If a newbie buys a guidebook and has the time of their life at the Robins - isn't that a good thing? Or would it be better if they watched the fireworks on the TeeVee? |
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Jeff R Closet hiker.
Joined: 10 Apr 2005 Posts: 972 | TRs | Pics Location: Everret |
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Jeff R
Closet hiker.
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Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:39 pm
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All guidebooks have in them certain sections or, different hikes if you will. Now unfortunately, they list some, that are someones "favorites", and there is a reason that they are popular, this is what the majority of people want, and that is to enjoy the outdoors, and what one hopes to exsperience in a hike. Most people will even accept the hoards of other people there as just the price to pay, to see such a great place, even more as time goes on. We (society) has to live with this fact almost everywhere in life, what makes you think that the outdoors is immune to this "problem" as well ? If some one wants to really enjoy the outdoors, lets say go in a long walk, with lots of commitment, to some obscure place, you are still able to, and will be able to, for along time, and that is exactly what you will get out of the trip.
And once someone has done as much as Fred Beckey has in the mountains, feel free to comment that his books have lead to the destruction of the wilderness, the ones the Mountaineers have marketed and saturated the public with, if it wasn't his books, it would be someones else's.
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Backpacker Joe Blind Hiker
Joined: 16 Dec 2001 Posts: 23956 | TRs | Pics Location: Cle Elum |
I was going to write my own book. "50 remote hikes in the Alpine lakes" is what I was going to call it. There are more than enough of those to fill that book. I was going to include color photos and location and hike descriptions.
People like Brian Curtis and Borank have helped me see the light. I wouldnt have been doing any good at all to/for the places I love so much. It would have been a financial and personal gratification, and not a love for the outdoors that shown through with a book like that.
Im glad that I've been fortunate enough to know these men. They have helped me grow as a person and realize what's really important.
Tom
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
— Abraham Lincoln
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
— Abraham Lincoln
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oosik Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2004 Posts: 76 | TRs | Pics
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oosik
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Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:47 pm
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Hichen wrote: | And once someone has done as much as Fred Beckey has in the mountains, feel free to comment that his books have lead to the destruction of the wilderness, the ones the Mountaineers have marketed and saturated the public with, if it wasn't his books, it would be someones else's. |
I wouldn't say we are talking about destruction of the wilderness in its entirety. However, attracting people to specific locations reduces the very attributes you prize in wilderness locations by changing the impact and solitude.
If you take the assumption that books are a given, discretion by the author and publisher is exercised as to what is included in those books. All of the most desireable, or next best, don't have to be in there. Some hikes in the hikes series are intentionally left out. Lake Serene was removed while the trail was getting rebuilt, and often shortcuts aren't listed because those of the Harvey Manning tradition believe that folks should have a respectful entry into the mountains which is best accomplished by time and distance.
As far as the argument that if the books didn't come from the Mountaineers, they would have come from elsewhere, that doesn't have to be the way things go. If everyone felt like Backpacker Joe, they would not be motivated to diminish future visits to certain places.
Do some google searching on Reinhold Messner's concept of "White Wilderness" to get an idea of another alternative.
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
I hafta agreewith BPJ, as much as I dispise such a move. I was going to publish a CD with maps of secret camps and hidden routes in the North Cascades bsed upon the Routes and Rocks series. I had it all made up with all the primo spots, est'e la vie.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Jeff R Closet hiker.
Joined: 10 Apr 2005 Posts: 972 | TRs | Pics Location: Everret |
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Jeff R
Closet hiker.
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:29 am
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I wish it was a perfect world too, where everyone enjoyed the outdoors only obeying the good merits of a few and left no trace, have you?
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Snowbrushy Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2003 Posts: 6670 | TRs | Pics Location: South Sound |
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Snowbrushy
Member
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Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:01 pm
Historic After You Die
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Usually a living person is not considered an 'historic person' until after he dies. This is The History Channel, eh?
Fred is alive & well - just try to keep him away from your wives and girlfriends ..
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Backpacker Joe Blind Hiker
Joined: 16 Dec 2001 Posts: 23956 | TRs | Pics Location: Cle Elum |
Malachai Constant wrote: | I hafta agreewith BPJ, as much as I dispise such a move. I was going to publish a CD with maps of secret camps and hidden routes in the North Cascades bsed upon the Routes and Rocks series. I had it all made up with all the primo spots, est'e la vie. |
I really like it when Mal and I find comon ground. Makes me feel, somehow better. Hmm.
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
— Abraham Lincoln
"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
— Abraham Lincoln
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wildernessed viewbagger
Joined: 31 Oct 2004 Posts: 9275 | TRs | Pics Location: Wenatchee |
Who should themselves be the gatekeepers ? and having brought this duty to themselves, will they act any other way than history has shown those of high regard and privilege ?
Living in the Anthropocene
Living in the Anthropocene
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Alpenstock My Shangrila
Joined: 21 Dec 2004 Posts: 7 | TRs | Pics Location: Cascades and Olympics |
Check out this great photo!
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