[MtnGoat]

It was fairly apolitical for a while.... do we really want to add Gore and politics to the mix?

[wildernessed]

There are a couple good books out by scientist of different backgrounds who have focused there entire lives not on global warming, but geology, evolutionary biology, botany etc..., who noticed changes in their respective fields that have been attributed to global warming. The Weather Makers by Tim Flannery is one such book showing the interconnectedness of life and how recent changes associated with human hydrocarbon activity have themselves directly caused alterations and exaggerations in wind, rain, temp, storm events, drought, species extinction etc..., it's a good read it further goes into the pros and cons of different alternative energy proposals.

[summithound]

Article today from MSNBC online... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13474997/?GT1=8211 with a quote for those who don't want to read it... "Weighing in on the highest profile debate about global warming, the nation's premier science policy body on Thursday voiced a "high level of confidence" that Earth is the hottest it has been in at least 400 years, and possibly even the last 2,000 years." I just finished the novel High Tide by Mark Lynas. He writes about first-hand experience stemming from his three year journey around the globe collecting evidence for his book. From the melting of permafrost in Alaska to the rapid melting of glaciers in Peru to the flooding of the small island nation of Tuvalu resulting from sea level increases, global warming is having more of an impact on the earth's climate than most of use chose to realize. I would highly recommend this book to all, especially the skeptics who still believe global warming is a POLITICAL issure. It's not. Scientists worldwide agree that the Earth's temperature is hotter than it has been in thousands of years. Simple as that.

[MtnGoat]

of course empirical measurements are not a political issue. they are correct, or they are not, (within error as stated etc) and can be validated, verified, cross checked, and tested using other empirical means. the assertion that human causes can be proven for this rise, is however a political issue as is what, if anything, to do about it so long as we stick with measurable, testable empiricism, no political issue. beyond that, it becomes politics. what else isn't politics, is the fact that without control cases, human caused warming can never actually be proven or disproven, due to the nature of the claim itself. (if anyone has access to the other earth that is the temperature we 'should' be at absent human forcing, present it to us for empirical measurements and the loop can be closed.)

[summithound]

What is certain is that human carbon dioxide emissions certainly don't help the issue. What also is certain is that global temperatures have risen to unprecedented levels during a time when greenhouse gas emissions have risen exponentially, primarily the period since 1970. Ice core samples from glaciers atop Kilimanjaro have particles contained within them dating back four thousand years ago and yet these glaciers are projected to be gone within ten years. Enormous ice shelves are breaking off of Antarctica and disintegrating. My question is, what else could possibly be causing this rapid rise in temperature if not attributed to human greenhouse gas emissions?

[MtnGoat]

don't know. i'm not the one positing proof. maybe they have the entire mechanism backwards, and CO2 increases come from warmer temps. maybe it's the sun. the problem with systems of this immense complexity is there is no way to know what you don't know. even estimates of what we don't know are conjecture, in a system in which overlooking the tiniest factor can throw off all calculations. i do not dispute empirical measurements. it's the cause and effect with no way to close the loop that is the problem.

[l]

I think that any hot button issue is looked at through the prism of everyone's personal core beliefs, and any observation made on a given issue cannot be exclusive to - or be unaffected by - those views.

[Brain]

[Allison]

There are still a lot of people who do not believe in GW. I say forget about what it's called and focus on the real problem--it's getting warm real quick. I think we can all agree on that. Once that agreement can be reached, perhaps we can all work together on mitigating the problem?

[MtnGoat]

the heck of it is, that's where it becomes politics!

[jenjen]

There is archeological evidence of wine grapes in Greenland. Trees used to grow on Iceland. Both of those places are way too cold to host such plant life now. The climate shifts. I don't think anybody disagrees about that. As to why it shifts and what specifically causes it's swings ---- current computer models just don't have enough information to make an accurate guess. We've been taking accurate temperature measurements for at best a couple hundred years. Making climate predictions requires a prism of several thousand years. We have some ice core samples that go back that far, and some fossils, but nothing more than that. Certainly nothing we can pin an acurrate climate model on. Yes, it's warming up right now. A couple hundred years ago it was cold enough in Europe that the great canals froze solid. Glaciers have been receding since an ice sheet about a mile thick covered the Seattle area. Are humans causing that change? I honestly don't know. I honestly don't think anyone knows.

[mgd]

When given lemons, make lemonaide. Some entrepreneur should be setting up their stand about now.

[Sore Feet]

Global warming is nothing. There is a much more dangerous threat that we must address immediately. I am talking, of course...about Manbearpig. I am super...duper...serial.

[phillyjon]

The Global Warming debate is not a political issue. It's an economic one.

[Stones]