[Tom]

You summed it up quite well Pappy. My question in the other thread wasn't to debate the other noise, but rather the "need" aspect. Being a statistician, I'd bring extra food, first aid, a water filter, etc. before a gun if I wanted to get the the biggest bang for for my insurance dollar.

[snag lady]

I don't carry a gun but there have been a couple of times I wish I had one. Like the time we got harrassed by drunken miners who were beating the bushes looking for us "two women" to have fun with and at times when hiking alone. I don't worry about the wildlife. Like an earlier post, I fret about some of the characters that lurk around trailheads and even have encountered from time. And it makes me damned angry that it should be a consideration for a solo hiker to carry one just because of hooligans or worse. I have no interest in taking away anyone's rights or changing anyone's opinion. This is simply mine. So what to use instead of a gun? Good ole intuition. If someone gives you the "creeps" there's probably a reason. So somewhere else or turn back or at the very least make sure they don't follow you. If going solo avoid places like hot springs or places scary people can ride into on wheels. Most people on foot are harmless. Again, MOST people on foot are harmless. Not all.

[Scrooge]

A gun in the hands of an experienced gunman (?) is a piece of protection in a very rare situation. A gun in the hands of a jerk like me would be a danger to everyone. I might be dumb enough to try to use it. As for grizzlies, I met a grizzly on the trail in Glacier Park my second day there. I have never met a grizzly in the Cascades in ten years. Black bears but no grizzlies. How much more proof do you need? In each case, a little hootin' and hollerin' resulted in the bear leaving the trail to me. If you're unfortunate enough to meet a bear that's come unglued from his natural patterns of behavior, the odds are a gun won't stop him before he mauls you. ... However, you are much likelier to encounter an unglued bear in Issaquah than in the Alpine Lakes. .... So keep your eyes peeled on Gilman Blvd.

[polarbear]

Where is that grizzly test that Randy posted awhile back? It can be really hard to tell the difference between the two sometimes. I wish BPJ had a photo from his sighting. As it stands right now there may be more physical evidence for the Squatch in the ALW than grizzlies. Show me the fuzzy photos. If you see a polarbear in the ALW say hi and share your gorp with him.

[Alan Bauer]

As Scrooge stated: ... However, you are much likelier to encounter an unglued bear in Issaquah than in the Alpine Lakes. .... So keep your eyes peeled on Gilman Blvd. I will fully agree with this, VERY much. If you want to be worried about bears in general, you are at much greater risk on the trails within 1/2 mile of residential neighborhoods in the Issaquah ALps than in the wilderness. I've had the pleasure of sighting bears 11 times in the wilderness, and well over 40 times from my own home (on the north side of Mitchell Hill, about 2 miles SW of Fall City). The rural bears are much more calm, less on edge, and if they have had a chance to get at all used to birdfeeders for food, they will quickly lose fear of humans. All wilderness encounters ranged from 300' to 50', and in every occurance the bear scooted as fast as possible. Here at home, they are as a rule the same, but get a yearling roaming for his own food and have had the chance at a birdfeeder or two, and he was a stubborn little 'ol teenager. I had to yell at him twice just to get him to stop digging around by a stump 30' from our breakfast nook! Then it was 5 more minutes before he slowly roamed on out the driveway. Now, if I could get the one out of 12 rural neighbors of mine to lock down his stupid chicken feed at night, we'd have no people offering the critters a taste of human luxery. Instead, this one person also is the idiot who thinks the bears are after his chickens of all things, and wants to blow it away in knee-jerk fear reaction. But that's a very long, side story... Sorry for rambling. I just have a lot to say about bears and the lack of general biological knowledge that most people (I'm not talking about everyone here) have about them.

[Randy]

I think it was Brian Curtis who posted the Grizzly vs. Black Bear quiz.

[Brian Curtis]

The bear identification quiz can be found here: http://fwp.state.mt.us/bearid/default.htm

[Dslayer]

I think I've used my pistol 3 times just to help a bear that was close to me know I was there-usually talking, waving my arms scare the heck the heck out of them if they haven't already sensed me and taken off-Every bear I've encountered, maybe a hundred or more, has run like crazy when they're aware I'm there. I did have a spooky encounter the other day with a huge black that didn't want to leave even after yelling, waving my arms, firing a shot, etc....I've shot more than a few grouse-pretty tasty little meal over a fire. I used the bear ID website in school this year, had kids do the training then take the test--they had a pretty good time with it.

[Allison]

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. If you want to carry a piece because you can well, have at it. Beyond that, what's it for? If it's a signaling device/noisemsker, well, I'm thinking ounce for ounce and dollar for dollar, a whistle might work just as well. Anyone ever get mugged or attacked by people in the woods? What about animals? Does a gun do many jobs? This is a question I ask of every piece of gear I carry. Seems like a heavy, bulky object that could potentially cause as many problems as it solved....

[Slide Alder Slayer]

The easiest way to tell a black bear from a grizzly is the bear's behavior. If it climbs up the tree to eat you it is a black bear. If it knocks the tree over to eat you it is a grizzly. My wife and I had less than a fifty-foot black bear encounter last September on the Golden Lakes Loop. Very anti-climactic, as soon as I said hey bear, it turned around and walked the other way. Most of the firearms I see are carried by horse packers, usually 44 magnums. I also encounter a lot of hunters during elk season. I have yet to see a backpacker carry an exposed firearm. Most criminals look for easy targets. The further away from the trailhead or an access road the less likely you are to find that kind of trouble. We all assume risk when we hike, and I think it is the perception of risk that is the question here. I believe it may be the answer to Allison's question why individuals choose to carry or not carry firearms in the wilderness. I don't think one persons risk assessment is any more valid than another, however, I would concerned seeing a 357 on the Snow Lake Trail and very unconcerned if it was carried on the Golden Lakes Loop. Enough rambling.

[Dslayer]

Allison-I've tried to answer your question everyway I know how-I have fired it 3 different times to alert bears to my presence, including once last week-It serves a number of functions, noisemaker, procure grub....and if someone or thing wants to mess with me-worse case scenario-I can shoot them. As I've already said I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It fits comfortably on my hip-I don't even know it's there when I walking so it's adding no real extra weight. I'm not advocating packing in the woods to those who don't like weapons, but in the event; however unlikely it might seem, that you are attacked by an animal or a human--throw your whistle at it. Good luck.

[IBEX]

[salish]

I'm tempted to believe BPJ on his sighting. About a year ago I spoke with an employee of WDFW in regard to grizzly sightings in Washington state. This WDFW guy was the grizzly authority. This was prompted by my hiking buddy's unnatural fear of grizzlies in the North Cascades. I honestly don't know how I wound my way to this individual, but it was one of those deals where you speak with seven different individuals within WDFW and dial three different area codes. I wish I could remember his name. I'm a little hazy on the exact details, too. Anyway, he told me there actually had been a sighting (unconfirmed) just north of Snoqualmie Pass, in the last couple of years, and there was a confirmed sighting near Glacier Peak a few years ago. My buddy was paranoid about hiking too far into the wilderness in the Anderson-Watson Lakes area, near Baker Lake, due to grizzlies. Naturally, this WDFW guy told me there were confirmed tracks of a grizzly in the snow near Watson Lake, something like 10 years ago (something I never hear the end of). I can tell you - fer sure - that we were trailed by a cougar in the snow while travelling cross country to lower Anderson lake, two years ago, and they worry me more than a grizzly. We saw his tracks following our on the way out the next morning. Anyway, this grizzly guy gave me the impression there are more grizzlies roaming around the north Cascades than most people think. Still, I think some of the other folks are right about getting killed by lightning before ever seeing one. On carrying: Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. I sort of let my gut feelings and locations dicate when & where. IBEX: I have an example for you on when I would consider using deadly force. In March of 1993 I was on a fishing trip with my buddy in the Okanagon, and we were shot at late one night while setting up camp near Blue Lake in the Sinlehekin Valley. This happened at about 1:00am, and we were building a fire and setting up camp just off an old dirt track. An old pickup came flying down the track and hit his brakes and started backing up to turn into our camp. I just knew he was going to screw with us. I was standing in the flood of my truck cab light when the first shot rang out, then five more extremely loud shots rang out as we ran from our truck and up into a hillside above our camp. I hid for two hours behind a tree, with my Swiss Army knife in my hands, and unbeknownst to me, my buddy was hiding in the bushes a hundred feet below me. We were being very quiet because we thought the guy might have climbed out of his truck and was stalking us. After a couple of hours of silence, we started signalling each and and then slithered down into the valley floor, a hundred yards or so north of our camp. We circled down the track and saw the guy had driven off. We hurriedly packed our stuff and headed for the town of Concunully and slept in the city park. The next morning, after making a police report, we drove back to where we were camped and I found six .44 magnum empties that had been ejected on the road, right where the guys truck had been sitting. It was scary as hell, and my point for being so wordy here is that, had he actually been stalking us, he could have killed me without so much as a second thought, because I had no way to defend myself. I was completely vulnerable. I had been a police officer, very briefly, back in the late 1970s, so I thought I knew what fear was all about, but I've never known fear like this. It was a heavy, palpable fear. If I had been armed would I have shot him if he had come after me? Probably. I kept thinking about my wife and children, and I wanted to see them and be with them again. So, that's my example of where & when I might have done something like that. I hope to god that something like that will never happen to me or my loved ones or friends ever again. And it probably never will happen again. By the same token, I will never allow myself to be that vulnerable again. I don't dwell on it or lose sleep over it, but I consider a gun a survival item just like a matchsafe or a compass. So, if you want to know what you need to do to avoid being shot by me, just don't open up on me with a .44 magnum in the middle of the night, and we'll get along famously. I'm not being sarcastic here - I know that was a legitimate question on your part. The only other time I felt like I needed a gun was at Hosmer Lake, in the Oregon Cascades, three summers ago. Three of us were in a large tent and were visited by a very aggressive black bear in the middle of the night. I heard if first and actually looked at it's big shaggy head thru the mesh window - about a foot and a half from my face. This bear prowled our tent for maybe half an hour trying to figure out ways to get in, and would leave and reappear every 20 minutes or so (all of our food was locked in coolers 20' away on a picnic table). The bear would inevitably return to our tent, huff & puff and stomp the ground with his front paws, and paw the nylon wall. We tried yelling, clapping, screaming, etc., but nothing would scare him away. Finally, a car drove into the campground around 3am and as it's headlights washed over our area the bear ambled back into the trees behind our tent. We were so freaked we made a mad dash for our pickup and drove out of the there to sleep at a local Ranger Station. A gun may or may not have made much of a difference, but it certainly would have made us feel a little better. Both of these unfortunate events occurred near or on roads or camgrounds, although Hosmer and the Sinlahekin Valley are definitely wilderness areas as opposed to urban. I think the farther a person travels into the back country the less these things happen, and you are safer. Still, I find no fault with people who carry handguns in the backcountry, and I sometimes do so myself. I'm very subtle with it, and you will never see it. Sorry for being so wordy - I really need to learn about brevity.... Cliff

[Dante]

I found the following at http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/69342_shapcol01.shtml Washington state protects remarkably broad liberties for its citizens in the possession and use of firearms. While the federal Constitution's Second Amendment contains the distracting "well-regulated militia" language, the Washington state Constitution is explicit: "The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired ..." Workman writes that the state Constitution and the laws built upon it confirm the conviction that individuals have the right to protect themselves and others with lethal force. But "this right is not without certain limits," he writes. "The right to bear arms is not and was never intended to allow citizens to bear arms carelessly, or with criminal intent. A private citizen may not carry arms in order to menace other individuals or the public at large." Under state law, homicide is "justifiable" when committed "in the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished." "Reasonable ground to apprehend a design" means it's reasonable to conclude that the other person has such an intent. I found this by searching "washington state" and "deadly force" on google. I thought the excerpt above was a decent summary. I think anyone who chooses to carry a gun has a grave responsibility to seek training in gun safety and to learn when deadly force may and may not be used. Any good gunshop can help folks with both. I don't own a gun, let alone pack one, but seeing them in the woods doesn't bother me. It's the people on the road up to the trailhead that scare me. I've seen terrifying examples of irresponsibility on the MFK--up to and including people shooting rifles paralell to the river bank P.S. Weird. I posted this after DSlayer's post below, but it ended up above DSlayer's post when I cam back

[Dslayer]

Ibex- Life threatening circumstances/situation would the worst case scenario-