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#19
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 9:46 am 
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Grizzly encounters in the Alpine Lakes?  We've batted the grizzly thing around before.  Where is the evidence?  Not anecdotal evidence - but verifiable evidence of grizzlies (other than one that wanders across the Canadian border) in the Cascades?  And if you think you can "get the jump" on a grizzly or anyone else, you are wrong.  Neither one is going to let you know when the attack is coming.  What is your gun going to do for you when the blood-thirsty backpacker sneaks up on you from behind or in your sleep?

Every year 100's of thousand of visits are made to backcountry locations in the Cascades and Olympics.  What percent of those people are threatened seriously by man or beast?  You have a greater chance of lightning coming through the roof of your house and killing you.  Why not build a shield over you house?

The greatest threat to your safety when in the mountains, comes from yourself - not the boogey man.  Rescues are routinely made because of mistakes and accidents that people make, not because of animal attacks and killer hikers.

you can kick my soap box out from underneath me anytime...
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Ice Girl
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 12:57 pm 
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i have to agree with you Pappy.

Well said...

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MtnGoat
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 2:16 pm 
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though I do not carry a gun, I have no problem with those who do, and do not understand the near religious intensity of fear of those who do.

fact is, you cannot factually say that a gun will not aid you. Sometimes it may, sometimes it may not. regardless of that, if a situation arises and you do not have it, it's certain it won't be useful, if you do have it, you'll still have the option.

I've never carried (except in Alaska) because in the Cascades I simply do not feel the need. I'll take the risk it might be useful but I won't have it. I have no desire to evaluate someone else's risk tolerance for them or excoriate them because I don't share their view of risk.
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#19
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 3:34 pm 
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MtnGoat, I am assuming your satement was directed towards me since it is a thread I started.  If I'm wrong then my follow on statements are just for claification.

I never said that anyone shouldn't carry a gun. I could care less.  I only tried to make the case that it will do you little good.  My thread was in direct response to BPJ's insistance that "he's protected" because he carries and that we that don't are somehow going around more vunerable than him.  That is a joke.  You can come up with a thousand ways someone can sucessfully attack an armed person.

I do agree that Alaska is a completely different situation.
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MtnGoat
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 3:40 pm 
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good enough. I'd have to disagree that we aren't going around less protected, because in the ultimate sense, we are! There's of course no way to guess what may happen and in what manner to say for sure a gun is or is not useful.

I am comfortable with the risk assessment I make, and presumably you and I share that comfort zone, but these other folks may not. Don't mind the discussion at all, was actually influenced by the comments of others on the other thread where guns came up more than by your question. My apologies if it appeared to be a direct comment on your position, it was intended more generally.  tongue.gif
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MCaver
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 3:48 pm 
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I don't care one way or the other about whether someone carries a gun, but what I object to is the religous zeal of some people who do. I have routinely been criticized and put down as a lesser person because I don't carry a gun (not by anyone here) and it's an attitude I see by a lot of gun nuts. (Note to the reactionary: not everyone that carries a gun or likes gun is a "gun nut", just the zealots who can't see past their own barrels). I understand the arguments both for and against guns, and I choose not to have one because I am not comfortable with them. But that doesn't mean I want to control whether others have them. But the attitude of the uber-pro-gun folks that I am somehow a lesser person because I don't worship them gets really old, and I would say is a big reason why a lot of people blow them off and/or might be afraid of them. It's not the gun I want to avoid, it's the people that worship them.
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Dslayer
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 4:34 pm 
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As a gun toter I tell you, if you don't feel like you need to carry a gun, you don't feel comfortable with one or are unpracticed in their use-don't carry one.  It probably won't make a diddly's worth of difference in your safety or enjoyment of the outdoors, but I've always believed that it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it-I've stolen that quote from Lonesome Dove, of course, but it's pretty sound wisdom.  Heck in the days of the rootin, tootin,' shootin' Old West, the most prevalent use of weapons other than for killing meat was to shoot your horse if you fell and got your boot hung up in the stirrup-many cowboys guns were so rusty they wouldn't shoot.

As far as the religous zeal of some gun owners-I can only apologize-Gun owners have also been attacked with something akin to zealotry by the anti-gun folks.
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Amos Gunn
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 4:47 pm 
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Well shuckins, folks. I bet after yet another gun discussion lots of people have changed their gol-durned minds. Now let's fix some other problems like abortion, religion, politics, cairns, flagging, shoes vs. boots, trekking poles, SUVs, campfires, and favorite bug protection dope. Oh yeah, what about dogs on the trail, horses on the trail, and people on the trail?
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#19
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 6:02 pm 
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Amos, you're absolutely correct.  Everything that could ever be said about the subjects you noted has been said here on this forum.

Tom, please put a ban on them.
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Tom
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 6:19 pm 
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Pappy wrote:
Amos, you're absolutely correct.  Everything that could ever be said about the subjects you noted has been said here on this forum.

Tom, please put a ban on them.

Surely you jest... lol.gif
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MCaver
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 6:29 pm 
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Quote:
As far as the religous zeal of some gun owners-I can only apologize-Gun owners have also been attacked with something akin to zealotry by the anti-gun folks.

Ok, I'll grant you that. I'll admit I'm probably a bit biased because I don't have the anti-gun people in my face, since I don't carry.  tongue.gif

My general philosophy in most things is: if it's not infringing on someone else's rights, then there shouldn't be a law against. I don't know if that makes me a lefty, a righty, a libertarian or something else. It's about freedom.

Quote:
I bet after yet another gun discussion lots of people have changed their gol-durned minds.

I can't speak for other people, but for me discussions are not about changing other people's minds. It's about hearing other points of view in the hopes that I might learn something. Every time we have one of these heated off-topic threads I learn more about the subject, from both sides. That's healthy, IMO.

Quote:
Amos, you're absolutely correct. Everything that could ever be said about the subjects you noted has been said here on this forum.

Tom, please put a ban on them.

Aww c'mon, Pappy. This is an off-topic forum that no one is forcing your to read. If I have to skip all the gear-nut bargain-hunting posts, you can skip over the occasional lively gun talk.  wink.gif
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polarbear
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PostThu Jun 20, 2002 6:57 pm 
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I have arrived at a happy compromise on the gun thing.   One hike I carry a gun without bullets, the next hike I carry bullets but no gun.  I have never had to either throw iron or sling lead.
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#19
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PostFri Jun 21, 2002 6:54 am 
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My last post was sarcasm.  I should have added wink.gif so you'd know.

I enjoy other points of view too, even if my response sounds a bit nasty at times.  Truth is I find BPJ's presence here to be the most important and even though I disagree with him, I'd hate to see him not posting here.

Because of him, I've learned that people with 42" tires are real people too. cool.gif
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#19
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PostFri Jun 21, 2002 8:32 am 
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One more thing.  In the "Little things" thread Allison wrote

"I know I'm going to regret asking this....but what is up with all the guns? What ever could you possibly need a gun for in the woods? Worried a bout getting mugged? come ON....and anyway, tell me how it makes your life easier or better? By scaring the rest of us?"

This was never addressed, (except by me agreeing), but instead the discussion turned to one of people supposedly wanting to take away rights and so forth, which was never suggested by anyone here. 

So how about it.  When and for what, specifically have you NEEDED a gun for while hiking?  I personally think the chance of needing a gun while hiking is one in a millon and I think some people carry guns more because it is there right to - not because they need one. ]
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MCaver
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PostFri Jun 21, 2002 10:07 am 
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Truth is I find BPJ's presence here to be the most important and even though I disagree with him, I'd hate to see him not posting here.

Same here. I may not agree with BPJ on everything (more than he thinks, though, leftist as I may lean sometimes) but I welcome the diverging viewpoints he and others bring to the table. Chris and I butt heads occasionaly as well, and while I may get frustrated at times in the short term, I value all opinions...even when they're wrong!  (Sarchasm, of course.  wink.gif )

As for guns in the wilderness goes, I could see wanting one for the off-chance you ran into bear or mountain lion situations, but more for attack prevention (aka noise) than defense. I'm more concerned about some of the seedy characters I've seen lurking around trailheads and some of the horror stories I've heard. It's the people I worry about more than the wildlife. But in both cases, the odds are very very very slim I'd ever need a gun. I have thought about getting one before (surprise!), but I've decided so far that the detriments for me outweigh the benefits. But if someone wants to carry or feels the need to carry for whatever reason, power to you.
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