[Slugman]

Good one, Guiran! I had a reason in mind myself, the amount of traffic on the road, but yours I hadn't thought of.

[Quark]

Backcountry Horsemen and hunter groups and individuals are pretty vociferous in that area. Hunting outfitters are a huge economy base there as well. The FS probably knows the outfitters need to assure existing and future clients that the area will be accessible; otherwise they’d lose the business to other areas. I think the key is vociferous and participating users and a good relationship with the FS, even if that includes criticism. We here on the west side tend to bash the FS on public websites, and refuse to attend public comment sessions to let them know what we want, while blaming them for not doing what we want them to do.

[Guiran]

Quark, I agree that there are powerful user groups on the east side, but I'd expect that the EIS for the repairs to Hart's Pass is probably a lot shorter than the one for the mountain loop.

[elulofs]

I teach EIS to freshmen out of a text, i'd love to see a real EIS. Does that dissolution anyone? Professor Ed

[Slugman]

Just for clarity, I was referring to the many FS roads in the Mtn Loop area, and not the Mtn Loop Highway itself, except just as part of the overall group of washed-out roads.

[jenjen]

The big advantage Backcountry Horsemen has over hiker's groups is that they speak as one big voting block. There's bickering at the local level, but at the state level they're speaking with one voice and they have lots of members to back their position. Hiker's are more scattered, so we don't have the combined force the Horsemen do. Another something to think about when the public comment meetings come around. Having 30 people in a room stand up to show support for a given item says a whole lot to the committee folks sitting at the front tables...

[elulofs]

[BeyondLost]

Slugman, I do not claim any ties to the forest service decision making, but I do live on the forest service road up to Harts Pass. The traffic up there once the snow is out is phenomenal all summer and that includes campers, hikers, outfitters with horses or llamas and sight seers. The hunters arrive in the fall and the snow machines go up all winter. The local economy runs on tourism, hunting and fishing and all of that is hurt when Harts Pass Road closes. I am sure that the business community in Winthrop and Twisp as well as individual outfitters etc have had communications with the forest service officials locally and through their elected officials. It boils down to money, the number of people involved and the ability of those people to work the system.

[Quark]

[marionthegoat]

[Slugman]

Fixing the many roads washed out in the Mtn Loop area was not a "go until a couple of people put the hurt on" (PS: the DNR agreed that the FS was breaking the law). Apart from the Peek-a-boo lake road, I don't know of any that have been repaired. What about Canyon lake? Meadow Mtn? Or any of dozens of other roads? And even using the Mtn Loop itself as an example, why wasn't the road started in spring of 2004? That was THREE YEARS AGO! I say let the Hart's pass road wait for three years at least, until every road that washed out before it is fixed! First destroyed, first fixed! That's perfectly fair. Here's a list of some roads that, as far as I know, zero has been done about (at least as far as getting them re-opened): 2040, 22, 23, 25, 2510, 26, 2640, 2660, 2680, 27, 2703, 4021, 4030, 4060, 4080, 4111, 49, 63, 6554, 6830. I thought the job of the National Forest Service was to manage FS lands for everybody, not just for private businesses that make money off certain roads.

[heavy08]

Locals...Politics.....and money...Thats NATIONAL

[steppinrazor]

[Magellan]

It would seem that the Okanogan National Forest has many more resources for road repair and trail maintainance than MBSNF. It that true, or is it simply a matter of the westside (wetside) being so much harder to maintain, combined with 'environmental' groups suing to keep everyone from driving by precious bird and fish habitat? Someone (Q?) pointed out that delaying a project four years by suing does not help the stream that is being silted in.

[BeyondLost]

Magellan, The Okanogan has pretty limited funds which they put toward the major roads and trails. I imagine this happens elsewhere but there is a large amount of trail clearing done here by private volunteers. For example the West Fork Methow was cleared and rebuilt after the Needles Creek fire by volunteers under contractor supervision. Every year Eric Burr (mostly) and I clear the Monument Creek Trail with chain saws and I also go up with my chain saw and cut out the down timber off the Scrample Point trail. This year that took several days of hard labor. The horsemen clear the Twisp River trail. A local packer and employees keep the Driveway Butte trail clear. I could go on and on but these kind of efforts leave the funds for the big jobs that require professionals with heavy equipment. This year is really difficult because last december we had the worst snow and blow down between 1800 and 4500 feet in memory. People can get through on foot but no stock on a lot of trails yet. I'm not sure how much people from out of the area realize just how much is done by locals to make their hike a bit easier and more pleasant. Most of us are not in the tourist industry, just people who enjoy the trails and like to volunteer.